Games Lawyers Play: Tampering with Evidence and Manipulating Jurors!

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There is a chair and there's a piece of a brass belt buckle

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next to a chair leg on the floor.

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And it has something to do with the trajectory and the

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ricochet of this bullet.

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It was, it was an important part of the case.

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The photo in exhibit 20 was taken before the photo exhibit 19 Sharky,

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but by marking them in sequence as 19 to 20, they suggest to a jury that.

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They were taking secrets.

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They had flipped the sequence of the photographs and the diff the

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prosecution didn't catch it with a fracture aligned against you.

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You've got to do something.

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So the only way to do something is to change the facts.

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Somehow you have to manipulate it somehow you have to create confusion.

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And that's what lawyer gamesis about.

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Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial

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in Richland county history.

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Dr.

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John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Marine and burying

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her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania.

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The 12 year

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old son lively took the stand

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and I heard a scream.

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I heard this about this loud, the

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jury find the defendant.

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When I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering.

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This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself.

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And it is my hope that it helps anyone who has experienced

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deception, betrayal, and dark trial.

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I'm calling your Landry and this is moving.

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They movers.

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What's going on, I'm calling your Landry and this is moving past murder.

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I just want to say it's been really cool getting to know a lot of you

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during my Instagram lives, which I have every Tuesday at 11:00 AM.

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Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern time on my Instagram channel, which

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is at @collierlandry which should be like right there.

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And I love just getting to know you guys and getting you guys ask me questions.

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You asked me questions about my story, about my life.

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I can ask you questions.

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And so I want to thank you guys for tuning in, and if you were watching this

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on YouTube, please like, and subscribe.

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I really appreciate it.

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It helps with the algorithm.

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You guys know the drill.

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Thank you very much.

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Okay.

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So speaking of people who are contacting me, I want to

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just, you know, the world is.

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Uh, predicament.

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If we will put it nicely.

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As of today, there are 1 million Ukrainians who have been displaced

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from their homes because of this.

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While I have not been involved in war in the sense of guns and fighting.

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I have been involved in a personal war and that was, uh,

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of my father murdering my mother.

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And I couldn't remember on the early morning hours of January 24th, 1990, when

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I was awoken by two total strangers in my bed who literally told me, pack your bags.

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Do you got 20 minutes?

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Uh, little did I know that I would never be back to my house again.

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And, uh, I had to pack bag in to toys and clothes and they, you know, they

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said you're going to be gone for a couple of days, which was not true.

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They said I could come and get my dog and that never happened.

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And so.

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I said goodbye to my dog.

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At that time, I was 11 years old and I had pretty much lost my world.

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And then that was just one more thing, you know, losing my mother,

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my father eventually, and my entire family, and then my way of life.

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So as someone who has been displaced by a tragedy, I am

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with you guys a hundred percent.

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Um, I know what it's like to have that feeling of not knowing

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what is going on in your world.

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So, um, Look, my heart goes out to you.

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Um, I pray for you guys every day on that note, you know, I have started reading

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messages every week from listeners and fans that that write in and this

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week is I have asked because I do have people from the Ukraine on my IG lives.

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And I do have people who respond on YouTube.

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Through Instagram.

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And my social media is Twitter.

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This is Katrin bench yesterday.

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I posted a video and I put the, uh, famous Tommy Hearns, John Carlos fist

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in the air for equality, with the Ukrainian colors of yellow and blue.

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And she noticed that and she wanted to say, thank you.

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And she said, thanks from the Ukraine I live here.

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And the ring of hell shrinks around us.

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Um, Again, I have never been a victim of war.

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Thank God.

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Uh, but I do know what is like to be literally uprooted from everything

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you've ever known in your way.

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And I'm with you.

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I know what it feels like, and my heart breaks for you guys, but I'm with you.

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So on that note, let's get into the episode.

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My guest today is a gentleman named Deb Kirkland.

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Deb was the assistant Dean.

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One of the assistant DA's in a case, this case became to national

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prominence through a film that was directed by the amazing Clint Eastwood.

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It was called midnight in the garden of goodness.

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And for those of you who are Jude law fans, you will remember this was

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like his first like breakout role.

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My conversation today with DEP delves into the American justice system, specifically

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how evidence can be manipulate.

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By both sides, but specifically when the defense and especially a defense

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that is backed by a prominent and wealthy individual, there were three

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mistrials, I believe, in this case.

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Um, and then I think the fourth ended in a conviction there.

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Definitive differences to a level of standards that prosecutors and defense

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attorneys are held to in this country.

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It's pretty fascinating.

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And, um, again, with my case and my father being a doctor and

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having his own little high powered.

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Team of lawyers, you know, I never knew what was going to happen if he

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was going to get convicted, if he was going to be, you know, released.

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And it was very scary for me because I took the step of testifying against him.

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And I'm the one that alerted the police and found the house.

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And anyways, I digress on that, but it's an interesting

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conversation with him, for sure.

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Now he wrote a book called lawyer games and we were going to discuss all those

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games that lawyers play because I am fast.

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Having been in both sides with the criminal case against my father's

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civil cases that I had with legal people that were involved, um, after

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the trial, for those of you that have watched the documentary of murder of

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Mansfield, you know, that my mother really wanted me to be a lawyer.

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And sometimes I consider maybe that might've been again, I don't know.

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Anyways, it's fascinating to listen to depth.

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Now he does go into further depth about the case and his role in it.

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And another episode that I'm releasing as a bonus next Wednesday, which is

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March 8th or ninth, I believe you will get to hear a depth, explain

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the case and his role in it more.

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It'll be very raw and unedited, but you know, if you guys are curious,

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you can hear it here to discuss all the wonderful games that lawyers

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play is my guest, Deb Kirkland.

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So Deb, tell me.

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About lawyer games.

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I have a little bit of experience in this, in both the criminal and civil arenas,

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but, uh, I would love to hear from someone such as yourself who has straddled both

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sides of the fence, you have been a trial lawyer for the defense of, uh, the accused

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and also on the other side of the, uh, working for the prosecutor's office, we

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would love to hear some of these, uh, these stories that I'm sure you have.

Dep Kirkland: 00:07:22

Well, I have a few, um, I think, uh, to relate

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to the why the title, right?

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And so why the title of the book, because the subtitle is after

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midnight in the garden of good navel.

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So it's, it started off as an examination of this really renowned murder case

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from Savannah called midnight is the William Jim Williams prosecution

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for murder of young Danny Hanford.

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Okay.

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Was made into a movie by clinics with whole thing, Eastern Spacey.

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So it started out as an examination of that remarkable case that went on for nine

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and a half years through former of trucks.

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What, what, what happened with me in going back and reviewing all of that?

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I went back and I said, well, I'm going to do a review of this.

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Cause I was going after the first.

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Okay.

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And I pulled every piece of evidence.

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I looked at every scrap of evidence, whether he'd been admitted,

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whether it hadn't been admitted.

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I looked at every statement of every witness.

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I looked at every affidavit.

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I read every transcript from beginning to end.

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I said, well, I'm going to have to look at well, what happened

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during the course of that?

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And I followed true crime to some extent, infamous cases, OJ Simpson,

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obviously Phil Spector, no side strange, or all of these types of.

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And I started to see a pattern of behavior because I'm watching it.

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You know, it's interesting that after the fact, when you go back and look

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at somethings a lot easier than when you're in the, in the battle and

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you're in the middle of it and things are happening so fast, if you can go

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back and look at this, what started to look to are starting to pop out to

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me was, oh, I see what they did there.

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I see, I see what this, I see what the defense attorney did,

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particularly in the Williams.

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Wait a minute.

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He's asking this witness, he's asking the prosecution's

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witness about blood splatter.

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He's asking about gunshot residue.

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He's asking about positions of this or that.

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And he leads right up to the edge of the conclusion, but he

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didn't ask him that question.

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Why didn't he ask him that question?

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That's interesting.

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Well, let's start it.

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And then he continued to repeat itself.

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I, we wait a minute.

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There was an issue of, uh, uh, like, uh, expert testimony in,

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in, uh, the OJ Simpson case.

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And in the, even a later indication in leaf of.

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Well, so Lisa told us the other guy's name.

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Um, the Amanda Knox case, y'all got a lot of blood evidence, DNA

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evidence, DNA evidence, and it

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Amanda Knox acquitted, or cause there was a, there's a recent

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documentary I believe about this.

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Correct.

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Or my okay.

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Which I have not.

Dep Kirkland: 00:10:04

Yeah.

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Oh, I have read every decision of the Italian courts.

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I looked at all the evidence in that case.

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I do get alone involved in this stuff because it didn't make any sense to me.

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And there was something that happened in that case.

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For example, that also happened in the Simpson case where they were talking

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about the fact that DNA was found on the bra class that was cut off of Meredith

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Kertscher the night that she was killed.

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It belonged to Amanda Knox was boyfriend.

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They claimed they'd never, he was never there.

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None of that.

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How did his DNA get on the broad class of the dead girl?

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And they, so I saw there was testimony from an expert forensic

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scientist in Italy, that there was a dirt found in the area ended.

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Apparently the collect people who collected the oven.

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And allowed it to become contaminated.

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And if you recall, go back to OJ Simpson contamination, contamination

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of blood samples is the theme.

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Oh, the blood samples became contaminated the blood sample.

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Well, here's the thing.

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This is DNA evidence.

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No two people have the same DNA.

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Sure.

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Putting dirt on a broad class can not put a human being's DNA on the broad class.

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That was never in context.

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So the blood.

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So I start to see these patterns in Williams case about how questions are

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asked and how, uh, there was an example, there were, there were crime scene photos,

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many of them taken in the Williams case and the position of evidence positions

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of certain things were important.

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Because as I mentioned, there were only two people there.

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The defendant said it was self-defense and it's all about the physical evidence.

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Everything is about that physical evidence.

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So here.

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There were a hundred plus photos taken today, digital age, it probably

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would have been 500, but there were a hundred plus photos taken.

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The ID.

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Officer began to photos photograph the scene.

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When she got there before anything was touched, right to memorialize

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the position and everything.

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At the beginning of the investigation, she continued to take photographs

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as they process the scene and the detectives showed up.

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She continued to take photographs of that process.

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All right, we get to.

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And this was in the second trial.

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The third you get to the trial with the new lawyers, they go through these

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photographs and I'll give you one example.

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There is a chair and there's a piece of a brass belt buckle

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next to a chair leg on the floor.

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And it has something to do with the trajectory and the

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ricochet of this bullet.

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It was, it was a Creole, it was an important part of the case.

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So they have a, uh, prostitution detective on the standard.

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Defense pulls out a, a photograph.

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They had it marked.

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And I'm going to give an example as defense exhibit 19.

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Fine.

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What is this?

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I'll ask the chair.

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Here's the bolt ballgame.

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Okay, fine.

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I'm going to show to you now another photograph and they had it

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marked as defendant's exhibit 20.

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Well guess what?

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The chair has moved.

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It's in a different position.

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Somebody has moved the chair.

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Now here's the thing.

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When the ID officer herself who took all these photographs was on the stand.

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She offered to take the proof sheets and put the photographs in order.

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And the defense counsel said that's not necessary.

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Guess why it's not necessary.

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The photo in exhibit 20 was taken before the photo in exhibit 19.

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But by marking them in sequence as 19 and 20, they suggest to a jury, they

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would not, they would take that sequence.

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They had flipped the sequence of the photographs and the

Dep Kirkland: 00:13:57

D the prosecution didn't.

Collier Landry: 00:14:00

So, is that something that, so is that sorry to interrupt

Collier Landry: 00:14:03

you, but just to clarify for our listeners, is that something that the

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defense can manipulate rather easily because obviously both sides are,

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or defense has allowed discovery.

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Right.

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Right.

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And in discovery, are they allowed to say, well, We need to sh we

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should be able to change instead.

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This is picture 20 and picture 19, we should be able to flip these because

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I feel this is, you know, they, they purchased the judge and say, we

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want to label as exhibit 19 and 20 versus, you know, 2019 or whatever.

Collier Landry: 00:14:31

Is that something that's common?

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Is that a way that they can, because I, I feel, again, lawyer games,

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there's a lot of gamesmanship involved, especially in the American justice

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system, but perhaps throughout the world that allows people, especially.

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If you have enough juice to pay the lawyers, to, for them to really craft

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when a defendant is clearly guilty of something for them to decry, to

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craft another narrative that sort of runs alongside that becomes the

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main narrative that they give to

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:00

a jury.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:03

Yeah, well, it is, as you've mentioned, when someone, when the facts are

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:06

with the facts are aligned against.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:09

You've got to do something.

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So the only way of do something is to change the facts.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:13

Somehow you have to manipulate it somehow you have to create confusion.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:16

And that's what lawyer games is about.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:18

I actually do a presentation.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:19

I created it's called, uh, the American criminal jury trial, a

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:23

playground for legal delinquents.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:26

There's a certain species of lawyer.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:31

And I've talked to Brenda about this.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:32

It is what I call the lust for the w it's about winning.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:36

Sure.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:37

And there are some who will not pat across that line.

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:41

There are others that do it every day and are they allowed to do it?

Dep Kirkland: 00:15:46

Well, for example, in the case of the photographs, those photographs,

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they assign those exhibit numbers because he said their exhibit.

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They're just like, I'm going to mark this a picture of whatever as exhibit

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the actual numbers of the photographs on the proof sheet don't change.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:03

They just pulled two of them.

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And use them to put them in opposite directions.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:08

Now, what could happen if you're alert to that in the process, the prosecution

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didn't pick it up in this case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:15

That's why I say, I say it's a lot easier after the fact he will sit

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and read a deposition or read a transcript and say, wait a minute,

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let me go look at these photos.

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And that's what I did because that's what I do.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:26

I look at the photos.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:27

Is it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:29

That chair was moved in the processing of the scene because the detective had to

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move it over so that he could take pick.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:35

She could take pictures of the debris on the desk.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:39

That's why it was moved.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:40

It was moved in the normal course of business.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:43

If they had their job, doesn't the defense job is not to, uh, is not to, uh,

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:49

solidify the normal course of business.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:52

It's natural.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:52

Repeat the prosecution's evidence is defined.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:57

There's one in the, in the Simpson case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:16:58

It's very interesting that, and this is what we do.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:01

This is what we, as defense lawyers do.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:03

When you're defending you don't have a case, you don't have a case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:07

There's a quote that's attributed to, uh, Bobby Lee cook, who tried

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:11

the first case of the defendant.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:12

The first.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:13

Famous murder defendant, uh, attorney not defendant attorney, and he is quoted not

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:21

in this case, but he was quoted earlier.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:22

And I think he stole it from me because I made this argument.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:25

And in the, in the case, in the first Williams case, if you have a

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:30

criminal defendant who is charged with murder, you need to prove two things.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:35

You need to prove whether or not he killed the person who's accused of.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:41

And then you need to prove whether or not the person needed killing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:45

That's what they did.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:46

I know it's kind of a joke, but that's what they do with hands.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:50

They turned it into somebody that you didn't care about.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:53

You talked about his psychiatric exam.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:55

He's a crazy, erasion, he's a crazy guy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:57

He's a kid who's out of control.

Dep Kirkland: 00:17:59

He lost control.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:00

He blew up, he attacked Williams and they painted this picture.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:03

Like you said, it's a narrative.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:05

They have to change that now.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:07

To support their position.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:09

Now, when you get the physical evidence gets in the way, then they do things.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:13

I call this debate and the switch there's the, uh, there's the expert witness will

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:18

say anything who flipped bodies, who were the three shots of the dead kid, Danny

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:25

Hansford in this case, the three shots, the last shot, as I mentioned, goes

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:29

through his back, directly into the floor.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:31

And yet William said he never rounded the desk.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:33

I think that was a coup de Gras.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:34

I think he rounded the desk and he finished him.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:37

Well, he can't have that be true because it shows that that's what he did.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:41

So he says I was behind the desk the whole time.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:43

So, you know what they did the defense expert change the sequence of the bullets

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:49

and actually claimed it, rotate the body to do that because he had to get the body

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:54

facing before somehow to get that bullet.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:57

So they switched bullet holes.

Dep Kirkland: 00:18:59

He used the same bullet hole in the floor for two of the shots.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:06

I didn't find that until later I said, wait a minute, but it's when

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:08

I'm reviewing things in the moment, you don't know what he's doing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:12

So they do, they try to confuse people and they try to, and it's important.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:16

That's what they

Collier Landry: 00:19:17

do.

Collier Landry: 00:19:17

And they often will make the victim out to be the bad

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:20

guy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:21

Absolutely.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:22

So they killed him and that he needed killing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:25

So

Collier Landry: 00:19:25

now in your opinion,

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:29

In your

Collier Landry: 00:19:30

opinion, is this very characteristic of specifically

Collier Landry: 00:19:33

American justice system, or is this characteristic of any justice system?

Collier Landry: 00:19:39

This is sort of modus operandi for a defense team?

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:44

I think it's, I think it's this, I think it is a symptom of any

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:47

system where winning becomes important and as every system now here's the difference.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:53

United States is the only modern nation.

Dep Kirkland: 00:19:58

In the world that does not allow the prosecution to appeal the

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:03

verdict in a criminal case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:05

So really here's what happens.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:08

And the reasons you asked

Collier Landry: 00:20:09

is allowed that,

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:10

that they all do this.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:12

You asked about Amanda Knox.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:13

So the reason that case became so complicated was that it went

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:15

up on appeal several times.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:17

The first time.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:18

Well, because it had been, were complaints about the processing

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:21

of the case by the prosecution about the judge handling the case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:26

So what happens in the United States,

Collier Landry: 00:20:29

retry cases all the time back there sort of time, or is

Collier Landry: 00:20:32

that they're sort of a way of appealing,

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:36

but here's the thing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:38

If, if a defendant they can't appeal, they can't appeal a conviction.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:43

I'm sorry.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:43

They cannot appeal a verdict of not guilty.

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:47

So what happens in the American justice system is that you do as a defense

Dep Kirkland: 00:20:53

counsel, anything you can do because you will never be called to task for it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:00

I don't know of any criminal defense attorney who has ever been sanctioned

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:05

by a bar association for conduct during the trial of a criminal case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:10

If they can get away with it, the defendant can walk out the

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:13

front door and confess, and there's nothing you can do about.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:17

So what it does is it encouraged to me?

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:20

I think it encourages that behavior because you know that if you can get

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:24

a not guilty verdict, no matter what you had to do, Then you're done and

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:30

there's, you're never going to see that case again, it's double jeopardy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:33

You cannot retry the case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:35

And that's why that's been said in cases here in the United States, people have

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:39

claimed about certain famous cases.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:41

Let's double jeopardy.

Collier Landry: 00:21:43

That's the sixth amendment, correct?

Collier Landry: 00:21:45

Double jeopardy that protects the double jeopardy.

Collier Landry: 00:21:47

So they

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:48

complained about Amanda Knox.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:49

For that reason, people said, wait a minute, this is double jeopardy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:51

She has been tried already.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:52

It's not double jeopardy on Italy because the verdict isn't.

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:56

And totally it is going through the appellate process and everyone

Dep Kirkland: 00:21:59

has had a chance because the goal is supposed to be to get it right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:04

Not about winning.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:06

It's about getting it right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:08

We have a different system.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:10

So I'm not saying that everybody is evil.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:12

They're not all defense attorneys are not.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:14

I was telling Brenda, there is a case involving a Phil Spector case, right?

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:18

The full spectrum case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:20

There became, there was an allegation made in that case that Dr.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:23

Henry Lee, the famous forensic scientist from Boston, he came in for the defense.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:29

There was testimony.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:30

There was a complaint from a detective who was on the defense team, actually

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:34

that he had thought he had seen Dr.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:36

Lee at the scene when he came later to, to view the same

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:40

that he thought he had seen Dr.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:41

Lee picked something up from the scene and take it with him.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:46

And it hadn't ever been.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:47

You hadn't seen that at whatever it was.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:49

Nobody ever saw it again.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:50

So you didn't know what it was.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:51

So he makes us allegation.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:52

He says, I don't know what it was, but I swear you.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:55

I saw him lean over and pick something up.

Dep Kirkland: 00:22:58

Now in that case, specter had shot Laura.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:01

I forget her last name on story.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:03

Um, that he had met at the house of blues that going home, it

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:05

was the middle of the night.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:07

You know, you call him that she had committed suicide suddenly with his gun.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:10

Well, all right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:12

She had acrylic finger.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:14

One of the tips of one of her acrylic fingernails had been, was missing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:19

Okay.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:20

Now, so there was some suggestion.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:22

Well, I wonder if that was part of her fingernail, because if it's a

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:26

fingernail, it shows that her hands were up in a defensive posture when

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:31

she was shocked and that she was not committing suicide on brown.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:36

Okay.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:36

Well, it's a little, it's a little murky because nobody knows.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:40

The only reason is judge Fiddler room yelling superior court.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:44

It heard this complaint about really the only reason that it was

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:50

resolved was that a member of the defense team, a female whose name?

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:54

I don't remember.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:55

I wish I did.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:55

She should have a statue put up somewhere.

Dep Kirkland: 00:23:57

She stood up in court and said, I cannot go along with this.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:03

I saw him do it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:05

He picked it up in a handkerchief and he took it with him and he got.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:10

Wow.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:11

And really should never be on a stand again.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:14

No, it doesn't come up because it, you know what, it doesn't come up

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:18

because there's no point in it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:19

So it was the tip of her acrylic finger him now.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:24

So I guess my point is, all of the systems are the same and the, you know,

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:29

the lust for winning is something that doesn't just happen in criminal cases.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:33

It happens in sports too.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:36

You can have two people see the exact same.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:40

And once a Giant's Fran and one's, uh, an Eagles fan and they can be sitting next

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:45

to each other and they will swear to you.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:47

They saw something completely different.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:49

Right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:50

And there are people who may be in a case, particularly say

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:55

basketball never touched him.

Dep Kirkland: 00:24:58

Well, yeah, maybe you did.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:01

And maybe a shoved a little bit.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:02

Maybe you did a little something because you want to win so badly

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:05

that sometimes maybe you even take steroids, maybe you leave.

Collier Landry: 00:25:09

That calls into question, the officiating and the,

Collier Landry: 00:25:12

because legit, Ron James always gets his hand hands put on him.

Collier Landry: 00:25:16

Like no other player.

Collier Landry: 00:25:17

It doesn't get the calls.

Collier Landry: 00:25:18

I just want to say that for the record.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:20

Yeah, it is about that.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:21

It's this gloss to win.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:22

It's about what will you do?

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:24

Uh, I was talking to a friend of mine today about this because he follows

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:27

all of this very big, true crime.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:29

And I told him I was going to do this thing with you guys.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:31

He's so excited about it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:32

He's read the book 40 times.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:33

I mean, he's that kind of guy, right?

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:34

And he's like, He said, I really believe that people who will cut corners in

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:40

life, if you make them into a lawyer, they become that kind of lawyer.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:45

And it is not very clear.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:47

It is not unique to the defense bar.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:50

There are prosecutors who do the same thing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:53

It's just that you never read.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:55

And what happens is people will appeal and you'll have a record.

Dep Kirkland: 00:25:59

Right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:00

And so you can read about the case where the prosecutor was

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:02

found to have planted evidence or who have done this or whatever.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:04

Right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:05

You don't see those cases involving what defense attorneys do, because there is

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:11

no appeal if they are not convicted.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:14

So there's no record and there's no appellate decision and there's no,

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:18

there aren't any of those cases.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:20

So it's interesting how we don't see those, but both sides will do it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:23

Anybody that wants to cheat to win will

Collier Landry: 00:26:25

cheat to win.

Collier Landry: 00:26:26

So they, so would you say that defense attorneys are held to a different set

Collier Landry: 00:26:29

of standards and then prosecutors that

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:32

work for the state?

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:33

Absolutely because their behavior is never reviewed.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:36

It's like coming as a kid with like a kid who knows that they're

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:39

never going to get caught doing whatever it is they want to do.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:42

I mean, it's just, it's human nature.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:43

There's nothing you can do about it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:45

In many cases, prosecutors get to decide what they take.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:49

If you walk into a court with a case, you better know your case and you

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:52

better be there for a reason and you better have a pretty good grasp of it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:55

Defense lawyers don't get that opportunity.

Dep Kirkland: 00:26:57

I guess somebody who comes to them to defend them, they get handed a case so

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:00

they can end up in a courtroom with a case that is so good for their client.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:05

So how do you, what do you end up doing?

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:07

You end up trying to find some way to get a jury so confused and these

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:12

people, again, don't do this everyday.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:15

There is a review.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:16

I have some people read this book and give me some feedback on it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:20

One of them is somebody named Aphrodite Jones.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:22

Aphrodite Jones used to do true crime with Aphrodite Jones.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:25

I think it was Missy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:26

And she want me to, for years he had this show and I know her and she read

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:31

the book and she had a comment about it, which I think is on the back of

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:34

the book or somewhere she said, anyone who reads this book will never again

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:39

look the same way at a criminal.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:41

Here's a bit taking the facade off to show you what's really going on.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:46

When a role, you're ask a question a certain way, why they asked that witness

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:50

and they didn't ask this witness, why they follow it up with their witnesses?

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:53

They didn't use the prosecution witness that they already had

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:55

right up to the edge of the case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:27:57

The thing about will they swap photographs yes.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:00

Related or strongly evidence?

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:01

I hope not, but that is the kind of thing that a jury.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:08

Unless you're on a jury, let's ask your job is to be on juries and

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:11

it's not, you come off the street and you don't know what's going on.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:14

You don't know what they're doing at that time.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:16

You don't know what they're talking about.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:17

And then the judge says, I'll come up here and go, we'll take the jury out.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:21

The jury goes out.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:21

And they don't like that.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:22

I like now that talking about stuff, we don't even get to here.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:25

This is all a game.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:26

We don't know what they're doing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:28

And you know, and they try to trust people.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:30

They want to believe that what people are telling them is true.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:33

And if somebody stands up, here's something that I have said.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:37

Do people say, you know what?

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:39

And I tried a case once defense as a defense attorney.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:43

And I had, I said, here's the thing, defense attorneys.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:45

Don't like it, it happens all the time.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:47

You're standing up and you're making an argument or you're cross examining

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:50

a witness in your client is sitting next to you and they start tugging

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:55

on your pants leg, or they what they do and start scribbling on.

Dep Kirkland: 00:28:59

And shoving it over so you can see it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:01

And it says, I am making this up, you know, because it does

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:04

happen, but they don't say this.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:06

They'll say the son of a bitch is lying.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:09

They're lying.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:10

I see.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:11

Yeah.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:11

Well, that's kind of how it works.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:13

Oh, I supposed to just tell I'm supposed to make an announcement to the court.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:16

They're lying to, here's the thing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:19

You take an oath as a witness to tell the truth, the whole

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:22

truth, nothing but the truth.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:24

So help you, whatever you wanna say.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:28

Unfortunately lawyers up to

Collier Landry: 00:29:30

the same tag.

Collier Landry: 00:29:33

That's why I was just thinking, I was like, they don't, they

Collier Landry: 00:29:35

don't, they don't take it out.

Collier Landry: 00:29:36

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:29:37

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:29:37

It just, oh

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:39

no, they don't.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:40

But if a witness, if that oath meant anything and it means something

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:43

to some people, it doesn't mean something to a lot of people.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:46

Now people still lie.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:48

Oh, guess what?

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:49

They lie.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:50

They take an oath and they lie.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:51

People lie all the time.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:54

And it, isn't easy to find out what they're lying about.

Dep Kirkland: 00:29:58

And here's the thing about D about what happens on the defense side.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:00

It, because of the American system, this is very interesting to me.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:03

I did not know that by the way about appeals.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:05

I am, I knew it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:06

I just had never thought about it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:07

Somebody who writes for, for, uh, uh, legal write for Bloomberg, I

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:11

think, or somebody on legal matters.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:13

And she mentioned this to me.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:14

Did you realize there's no appeal by the prosecution in the United States?

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:18

I said, well, I knew that I just never thought about what it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:22

But what it does does to the behavior on the other side.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:25

So there was this situation in the Simpson case where Barry Scheck,

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:30

another one of those guys, he argues to the jury, that evidence

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:34

in a criminal case is like a chain.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:36

And if any link of the chain is broken, the case collapses, well,

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:41

that's not the way it works.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:43

It NAS, not the law, but that's the approach is they'll go after every.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:49

And try to create doubt somewhere.

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:50

Some part of the case, the truth is it doesn't matter if you have a video,

Dep Kirkland: 00:30:56

this legitimate of the killing, then the fact that the person had bad eyes or

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:02

that it was dark, or it doesn't matter.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:04

It's an accumulation of evidence.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:06

And I talked about Vincent, Bugliosi talking about evidence as a rope

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:11

or a cord, and if you remove one piece of it, it doesn't go away.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:17

It becomes perhaps.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:19

Less thick and less strong.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:21

It doesn't go away.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:22

It's not a chain.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:23

And in the end of the Simpson case, this is fascinating to me after the OJ Simpson

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:28

verdict that in the criminal case, the chairperson of the jury was interviewed.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:36

And she was asked specifically about the blood at the crime scene.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:41

There were drops of blood at the scene that were never questioned.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:46

There was never any testimony by anybody that they were anything

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:49

other than OJ Simpson's blood, the contamination was about other blood.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:53

It was not about that blood.

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:54

And I don't remember if it was three blocks, three drops, two jobs, four drops

Dep Kirkland: 00:31:58

of blood at the scene of the killing.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:01

That was, it was his blood.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:04

No doubt about it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:05

And they asked her about, well, what about the blood at the crime scene?

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:11

And her answer was astounding.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:13

She said it didn't really, we didn't think that much about that because that

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:19

was not the reasonable doubt that we found what we went out and we found

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:28

some reasonable doubt somewhere else.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:31

So we just ignored the blood of data at the current scene at the end of

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:34

the case, in the Williams case to get back to about Williams and crime.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:38

And a lawyer games, the assistant da, in that case named guiding

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:44

David Locke, terrific lawyer.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:46

He was, he was stunned when he came back with a not guilty verdict sure.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:51

To a member of the jury, a woman who was on the jury, he went to her and he said,

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:55

do you mind if I ask you a question?

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:57

Oh no, you guys were great.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:58

You guys were great.

Dep Kirkland: 00:32:59

So I'm not really, it's not valid that he says I don't.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:03

I just, I, if you could just tell them.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:06

What about the physical evidence in her answer was, well,

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:14

what did that have to do with

Collier Landry: 00:33:15

it?

Collier Landry: 00:33:16

What about the physical evidence?

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:18

What he says, what about the physical evidence and her response

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:22

was, what did that have to do with it?

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:25

What did that have to do with it?

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:27

It's a physical evidence case.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:28

That's what the case is.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:30

How did a member of the jury get to a point the end of that case of

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:34

thinking it was about something else.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:36

Wow.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:37

They thought they were watching a play.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:39

I don't, I don't know what he'll get became.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:41

Say I wasn't there for four and there's no transcript cause it wasn't appeal.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:44

But I talked to people who were there and I guess it's this, they, uh,

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:49

to, to call yours note about this, they weave a, they weave a story

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:53

and apparently they had manipulated and well and massage that story.

Dep Kirkland: 00:33:58

That a jury bought it Hansford was crazy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:01

And his fruit was out of control and food was as a punk.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:04

And this is why I mentioned, I think before that I was contacted by Danny

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:08

Ginsburg ni a nice, I think, yes, he was her uncle and she had heard about

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:15

my book and she said, I don't know whether or not to read your book.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:20

And I want you to tell me because I've seen what was done.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:28

To my uncle and not about the killing, but about the characterization and friend.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:37

Right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:38

She said, so I don't know if I want to read another one

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:40

or if I want to see it again.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:41

So just tell me what you think.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:44

And I said, I think it, I saw, I'll tell you this, your uncle was

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:48

not a member of the choir at St.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:54

Jude's church.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:55

He.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:57

All right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:57

He lived in the street.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:58

He had a lot of problems.

Dep Kirkland: 00:34:59

You probably know that.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:01

Cause you grew up around him.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:03

Yes.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:04

He had a lot of problems in his life.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:06

He had a tough, tough childhood.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:09

His mother.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:09

Oh my goodness.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:10

I don't know how the kid ended up as it is as okay.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:15

Sure, but it didn't, he didn't deserve to be killed because of that.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:21

So you can read the book if you like, because I think I do a pretty

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:25

good job of defending him from the slander, his treatment that he got.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:31

But you're going to read some things that might not make you real happy to read.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:35

And I, it didn't say it on, uh, your, your podcast, but there was a gripping

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:42

piece of testimony and I'm happy to say it because it's in the record of the case

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:47

from a D from a de hinge, with his best friend who knew him, knew his girlfriend,

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:52

the whole thing, he knew the whole scheme.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:53

He's the one who testified that Danny used to pick on Williams and how that

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:56

worked out with the thing with the car, with the necklace and this and that.

Dep Kirkland: 00:35:59

And, you know, I asked him.

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:03

What he was doing with Williams, like, why are you doing this, this and that?

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:06

You said, so this guy living in his house and you're doing, you

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:10

know, when you're having sex with him, even though you're not.

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:12

And he said, and Danny's answer was, you know what, uh, the guy's rich.

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:18

If he wants to pay me to suck my whatever, then I'll take the money.

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:24

So you can't really say Danny Hansford was exactly the kid.

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:27

You really want your daughter to grow up in area.

Dep Kirkland: 00:36:30

That doesn't and that's what they, that doesn't make him

Collier Landry: 00:36:33

didn't deserve to die or be, or be slandered, you know, and

Collier Landry: 00:36:39

having the narrative manipulated that's, you know, this is all very interesting

Collier Landry: 00:36:44

and I think it, you know, then that, and I think, you know, this case was what,

Collier Landry: 00:36:49

over 20 years ago, now you have a whole.

Collier Landry: 00:36:53

You die, you throw things like Twitter and Facebook and YouTube and

Collier Landry: 00:36:58

social media at all into the mix.

Collier Landry: 00:37:03

And now you have a more convoluted narrative that we've seen, you know,

Collier Landry: 00:37:08

recently play out over the last couple of years in our justice system right now.

Collier Landry: 00:37:12

And it becomes so convoluted.

Collier Landry: 00:37:15

You don't even know which way is up and you don't even have tell the truth,

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:18

know what you don't know, which way is up.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:20

However, To your point, but everybody knows.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:23

He knows the answer within 12 hours.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:26

Everybody knows.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:28

Well, they really don't know, but they've seen the video.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:32

They've seen the toy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:32

No, they see the cell phone and they, it, oh, well, you know what happened?

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:35

You know, this happened, no, you don't.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:38

And then they always, and they will question the jury.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:40

I said, do you even sit through the trial?

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:42

If you're not in the courtroom and you don't hear all the testimony,

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:45

just shut up, get off of social media and stop slinging, just junk

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:49

around about each other, because what it does to your point, is it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:53

It eats at the confidence we have in the system.

Dep Kirkland: 00:37:56

If we have some, right.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:00

Um, everybody has an opinion.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:03

Everybody knows, everybody knows, and it's all a well, and if any, if

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:06

it's something that you don't agree with, then it's because it was fixed.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:09

Well, it had to be fixed if I don't like what happened.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:11

Oh yeah.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:11

Yeah.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:11

Well, you know what, you know how lawyers are, you know, how they,

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:13

you know, none of this stuff, but it is, uh, it's hard to have confidence

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:18

in this system, but the truth is.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:21

It's what we got.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:22

And we like to say, you know, this is another point we

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:24

like to say, you know what?

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:25

It may not be perfect, but we have the best system criminal

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:28

justice system in the world.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:29

Well, you know, we don't necessarily, there are countries

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:32

where the other side can appeal.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:35

Regardless.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:36

There are countries where you have a panel of judges that hear these

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:39

cases where you don't rely on people that are pulled off the street,

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:43

who can get bamboozled so easily.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:46

Um, there are other systems that do a pretty good job.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:49

They also have problems.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:51

Sure.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:52

But we didn't, we don't, we don't look outside of ourselves.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:54

We all think, well, it's the U S we must be great.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:57

And we like to say that a lot, what's the best system.

Dep Kirkland: 00:38:59

And even though we, you know, what most of these people don't even know, it's

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:03

like the folks who said you can't retry Amanda Knox because it's double jeopardy.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:07

And this was somebody on television, on network news who is illegal animal.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:12

And I wrote into them, my comment,

Collier Landry: 00:39:14

we won't go there.

Collier Landry: 00:39:15

We won't go there to the,

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:16

they obviously don't study international law.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:18

Those

Collier Landry: 00:39:18

experts anyway.

Collier Landry: 00:39:21

Well, Deb, thank you so much for your time in 30 seconds or less.

Collier Landry: 00:39:25

What are you up to now?

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:27

Uh, five films in a row.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:30

First one in Georgia, which is why I'm here and another seven or eight after.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:36

TV shows I'm in the entertainment business.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:37

Now I quit.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:38

I gave up the law, but I know I walked away from it.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:40

I never, should've been a lawyer.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:41

My mother should have been a lawyer.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:43

I suggest that I go to law school and I said, well, I'm not doing anything else.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:47

Fine.

Dep Kirkland: 00:39:47

I'll go.

Collier Landry: 00:39:52

That was a really interesting conversation with Dep.

Collier Landry: 00:39:54

One of the reasons why I wanted to have him on the program is not only

Collier Landry: 00:39:57

because I really enjoy that movie midnight in the garden of good and evil.

Collier Landry: 00:40:00

I remember seeing it in the theaters long time ago, but also, uh,

Collier Landry: 00:40:04

you know, he seen a side of the law that not many of us get to.

Collier Landry: 00:40:08

We see these sort of dramas play out on television, I suppose, or in our own

Collier Landry: 00:40:13

fantasy worlds on a true crime podcast.

Collier Landry: 00:40:15

Maybe.

Collier Landry: 00:40:15

I don't know.

Collier Landry: 00:40:16

But for the most part, you know, he has an insider's look and it's tough

Collier Landry: 00:40:22

because it has me again, questioning our justice system in a way that I really

Collier Landry: 00:40:26

hadn't done before, because ultimately, if you look at it, my father was

Collier Landry: 00:40:31

convicted of the murder of my mother.

Collier Landry: 00:40:32

He did have a high powered team of lawyers and he ultimately lost.

Collier Landry: 00:40:37

Mostly because of the impact of his 12 year old son, but nonetheless,

Collier Landry: 00:40:42

um, however, it does make me feel and think about the people who

Collier Landry: 00:40:47

I've interviewed on this program.

Collier Landry: 00:40:48

Like Melissa McInnes, for example, who was in a couple of episodes ago,

Collier Landry: 00:40:52

who's still looking for justice for her son Danye Deon Jones, right.

Collier Landry: 00:40:56

And evidence being destroyed and things of that nature.

Collier Landry: 00:40:59

It's, it's heartbreaking.

Collier Landry: 00:41:01

So as much as I.

Collier Landry: 00:41:06

As much as I have respect for the justice system and that I feel it served me.

Collier Landry: 00:41:10

It doesn't serve everyone in the same way.

Collier Landry: 00:41:13

And that's unfortunate.

Collier Landry: 00:41:16

And hopefully with conversations like these, we can begin to

Collier Landry: 00:41:20

change that narrative in this country and around the world.

Collier Landry: 00:41:23

Um, I mean, look, life is not.

Collier Landry: 00:41:29

It's sometimes it really sucks if life were fair.

Collier Landry: 00:41:32

Ultimately my mother would still be here.

Collier Landry: 00:41:35

She wouldn't have been murdered, but that's what it is.

Collier Landry: 00:41:38

I mean, it's tough.

Collier Landry: 00:41:42

It's tough.

Collier Landry: 00:41:43

But, um, again, I want to hear from you guys, my listeners, uh,

Collier Landry: 00:41:47

thank you so much for tuning in.

Collier Landry: 00:41:48

I'm calling your Landry and this is moving past.

Collier Landry: 00:41:58

this podcast is made possible by support from listeners, just like you.

Collier Landry: 00:42:03

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Collier Landry: 00:42:07

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Collier Landry: 00:42:16

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Collier Landry: 00:42:16

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Collier Landry: 00:42:20

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Collier Landry: 00:42:28

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Collier Landry: 00:42:33

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