Incest & Sexual Assault (How She Survived) | Nancy Barrows
Disclaimer: This episode contains mature topics and includes graphic conversations about incest and sexual abuse. Audience discretion is advised.
Named one of LinkedIn's 50 Most Impactful People of 2021, child sexual assault survivor-turned-thriver Nancy Barrows M.S. CCC-SLP is using her personal story to change the narrative on how we look, discuss and treat child sexual abuse, both here in the United States and around the world
Episode Highlights:
- Nancy shares with us her personal story of being assaulted by her grandfather starting at the age of four. And, how her family was forced to confront the abuse after years of "being in the dark".
- Using her fierce resilience, combined with the love and understanding of her family, Nancy was able to confront her demons of an eating disorder and get off the hamster wheel of guilt and shame that so often survivors find impossible to disengage from.
- Collier shares the similarities between Nancy's trauma and his own dealing with the murder of his mother by his father.
- Nancy and Collier share a "knowing" moment, the point at which you can recognize trauma in others because you've been through so much.
- According to the CDC, child sexual abuse is a significant but preventable public health problem. Many children wait to report or never report child sexual abuse. Although estimates vary across studies, the latest data shows:
- About 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 13 boys experience child sexual abuse at some point in childhood.
- 91% of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by someone the child or child’s family knows.
- The total lifetime economic burden of child sexual abuse in the United States in 2015 was estimated to be at least $9.3 billion. Although this is likely an underestimate of the true impact of the problem since child sexual abuse is underreported.
- The prevalence of child sexual abuse is difficult to determine because it is often not reported; experts agree that the incidence is far greater than what is reported to authorities.
If you or someone you know is suffering from or is the victim of sexual abuse, please use the following resources to seek assistance.
Resources I mentioned:
National Sexual Assault Hotline: Available 24 hours 1-800-656-4673
https://www.rainn.org/about-national-sexual-assault-telephone-hotline
https://victimsofcrime.org/child-sexual-abuse-statistics/
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fastfact.html
Connect with Nancy Barrows here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancy-barrows-m-s-ccc-slp-92124213/
YouTube Episode link: https://youtu.be/rQLjO8kQRfw
AFTER THE EPISODE LIVE Q&A with host Collier Landry!
TUESDAY'S 11 am PT/2 pm ET on IG LIVE @collierlandry
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Moving Past Murder is passionate about examining not only the collateral damage of violence and its traumatic repercussions but the beauty of human strength and resilience through seemingly insurmountable odds.
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AFTER THE EPISODE LIVE Q&A with host Collier Landry!
TUESDAY'S 11 am PT/2 pm ET on IG LIVE @collierlandry
*** YOUR SUPPORT MAKES THIS PODCAST POSSIBLE ***
Moving Past Murder is passionate about examining not only the collateral damage of violence and its traumatic repercussions but the beauty of human strength and resilience through seemingly insurmountable odds.
Please consider supporting this podcast by donating today: https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=U4SVWUF6KPZLL
Follow Collier Landry on Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/collierlandry
Subscribe to my YouTube Channel http://www.youtube.com/collierlandry
Thanks for watching! Like what you see? 👉🏻 Subscribe! 👈🏻
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Nancy Debra Barrows:
Here.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was literally unleashed on my family.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Everyone knew I was not ready for that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was ready for it to stop that I was not ready to, you know, have people,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
my parents look at me, cry going through their version of the trauma.
Collier Landry:
Hello.
Collier Landry:
And welcome back to another episode of moving past murder.
Collier Landry:
I am your host, Collier Landry, and I want to thank all of my listeners and
Collier Landry:
viewers for tuning in each week for our new episodes, which are released every.
Collier Landry:
On your favorite podcast app or on our YouTube channel,
Collier Landry:
http://www.youtube.com/collierlandry, please like, and subscribe.
Collier Landry:
And I want to thank you for your support of these very deep and personal
Collier Landry:
conversations that I'm having with you.
Collier Landry:
The audience sharing my own story about the murder of my mother by
Collier Landry:
my father, but also the stories and experiences of my guests as well.
Collier Landry:
Now this week is Valentine's day, week.
Collier Landry:
Uh, it was just a couple of days ago.
Collier Landry:
I went back and.
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With airing this episode this week, but I've decided to go ahead with it primarily
Collier Landry:
because a lot of my listeners and viewers have reached out with a specific type of
Collier Landry:
trauma, which is that of sexual assault and specifically sexual assault when they
Collier Landry:
were a minor and how that is affected.
Collier Landry:
So today's conversation is a very difficult and challenging conversation
Collier Landry:
for a lot of people to have.
Collier Landry:
And it's understandable, but I wanted to give this warning that the material
Collier Landry:
covers incest and it's a very, it's a very difficult topic for a lot of people, too.
Collier Landry:
Confront and to discuss, but it's also something that I feel is a
Collier Landry:
very necessary part of healing is having these conversations.
Collier Landry:
So consider this your warning, that this is a episode that.
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Very heavy.
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And some viewers and listeners might feel that this is a lot to
Collier Landry:
handle, especially on a week, all about love and celebration of love.
Collier Landry:
And we're going to flip this on its head and say, what if the
Collier Landry:
people that are supposed to love you the most and protect you from.
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That is your family actually are the ones that are doing you the harm.
Collier Landry:
So today is the guest is going to discuss her personal journey through
Collier Landry:
just that if you or someone you know, is struggling or is dealing with sexual
Collier Landry:
violence, sexual assault, molestation, I will put links in the show notes to
Collier Landry:
organizations where that you can reach out to, to help you with this process,
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um, and, and, and deal with it because.
Collier Landry:
Very strongly about this, that this is something that it can be crippling
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and debilitating as you come into adulthood to come to grips with.
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There's a lot of guilt and shame that are that accompany and unfortunately
Collier Landry:
accompany these types of things.
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And it doesn't have to be that way.
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And I'm hoping that this platform.
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Enables my viewers and listeners to really feel it, feel that,
Collier Landry:
that, that it's it's okay.
Collier Landry:
You're going to get through it.
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And this is a support base for you.
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And so I'm sharing the story of this wonderful young woman who is
Collier Landry:
sharing her story with the world.
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And it has been a process for her to go through, but she.
Collier Landry:
Has ripped the bandaid off and embrace this and use this as a platform for
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empowerment for not only herself and her journey of healing, but
Collier Landry:
also to heal and nurture others in similar circumstances, much like I
Collier Landry:
did with the murder of my mother.
Collier Landry:
This is moving past murder.
Collier Landry:
I'm calling.
Collier Landry:
Let's get into it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Want to continue today in the most notorious criminal
Nancy Debra Barrows:
trial in Richland county history, Dr.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Marine and burying her body in
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the basement of his new home in Erie,
Collier Landry:
Pennsylvania got killed.
Collier Landry:
I never harmed her at all.
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The 12 year old son.
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He took the stand and I heard
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a scream.
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I heard fun.
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It's about this.
Collier Landry:
We the jury in this case find the defendant.
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I confront my incarcerated father in prison.
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I'm going to have that moment where I can ask this, man, why dad?
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Why did you do this?
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Everyone knows is premeditated.
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What I want to know is I've told you the truth.
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This is used believing that while he's saying no, no, no.
Collier Landry:
My guest today was named one of LinkedIn's 50 most impactful people of 2020.
Collier Landry:
Nancy Barrow is as a keynote speaker and the chief excitement officer
Collier Landry:
of the chick with the tool belt.
Collier Landry:
She's also the co-host of what's good Wednesday and shout out Saturday on
Collier Landry:
LinkedIn with our cohost Brian showman.
Collier Landry:
I am pleased to welcome to the program.
Collier Landry:
Nancy Barrows.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Thank you for having me tired.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So privileged to be here and share my story.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So you
Collier Landry:
were just named LinkedIn, one of LinkedIn's
Collier Landry:
top 50 most impactful people.
Collier Landry:
So that's quite an honor.
Collier Landry:
So tell me just a little bit about.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It is quite an honor and it was really unexpected.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, it is voted on by peers, so other LinkedIn users.
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So it's very meaningful to me, but it also.
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It symbolizes to me that everyone can in the world of LinkedIn, it's 800 million
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people and other people on the list have hundreds of thousands of followers.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And we've been on the platform for years and I've got about 2,500 followers and
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I'd been on the platform for a year.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It just means that anyone can do it right in a year's time.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We all can have a huge.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, we do not have to have a huge number of followers to be having a large impact
Nancy Debra Barrows:
and being recognized for that impact.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's still, it's still something that I'm processing.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Quite frankly, it's a little surreal, but, um, like I said, such an honor
Nancy Debra Barrows:
voted on by peers and that example of anyone is, is huge for me.
Collier Landry:
That's very cool.
Collier Landry:
Now, Nancy, we know.
Collier Landry:
Uh, because of Brian Schulman, who is your co-host and a part of your
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voice revived tribe on LinkedIn.
Collier Landry:
And you guys do like the shout outs Saturday.
Collier Landry:
What's good Wednesday programs, which has been running for a very long time.
Collier Landry:
I believe.
Collier Landry:
How long has that been
Nancy Debra Barrows:
going on 200 episodes for each show
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officially at 1 95, um, this week.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And yeah, it was Brian Schulman, creative voice, your vibe.
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It's about three years.
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Passion that he left sort of the corporate world found his path and I've
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been lucky enough to, you know, Brian saw something in me and took me under
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his name and became a mentor to me.
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And the joke about the shows is I would show up and refuse to leave.
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Like I showed up on day and refused to leave.
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And so over time, creating that relationship, you know,
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became more and more part of the family you have with Brian.
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We, we do the shows that are all about what exactly what they say.
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What's good Wednesday.
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Talk about what's good.
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What's been happening and shout out Saturday.
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It's shout out to someone who's made a difference in a positive
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impact in your, your life that.
Collier Landry:
Which of course, you know, as the, the last, what year and a half
Collier Landry:
that we've all come through has been good.
Collier Landry:
News is appreciated.
Collier Landry:
And in dark times, I suppose
Nancy Debra Barrows:
it's kept a lot of us going to hear that there is good and.
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And it's a beautiful, amazing community that positive I've tried.
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Um, and again, this is, this is Brian's baby, and I've been, I have been brought
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into it, which again is such an honor.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, it, it really is a place where you can show up in a pandemic.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That's, you know, there's not a whole lot of going on and to remain connected to.
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Was huge for me.
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Um, and we were a bit into the pandemic by the time I caught on.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I hadn't even realized how I splitted it alone.
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I become because it'd become normal for me and for many of us.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So yeah.
Collier Landry:
So Nancy, after we had met you, you know, I told you my
Collier Landry:
story and then that resonated with you, and then we kind of got into you.
Collier Landry:
You felt empowered and.
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And I guess inspired or, or, or safe to tell me your journey that you've been
Collier Landry:
through, which at that time you told me you just started sharing this journey
Collier Landry:
through, I believe the LinkedIn platform.
Collier Landry:
And that was, uh, as a survivor and thriver, uh, um, from sexual
Collier Landry:
abuse that you suffered as a child.
Collier Landry:
You've used that as a, as a platform to empower others much.
Collier Landry:
Like I've done with the murder of my mother, by my father.
Collier Landry:
And even though this program is called, moving past murder, it's.
Collier Landry:
True crime show.
Collier Landry:
It's more about people moving through extraordinary circumstances, facing
Collier Landry:
challenges that would cripple most individuals and have for so long, and then
Collier Landry:
being able to use those to enrich your life and the lives of those around you.
Collier Landry:
And that's something that I feel you've done and I I've
Collier Landry:
certainly tried to as well.
Collier Landry:
Um, so if you wouldn't mind, could you just share with us
Collier Landry:
your story that you've done?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Sure I can share with you both the LinkedIn journey and
Nancy Debra Barrows:
the actual story that was being told.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So I I've been pretty open with people.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I know about my story, you know, I, I I've had the face-to-face conversations.
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It's not something I had in my daily life, but they've said it out loud on a form
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like those 800 million people when you never planned to, um, was a big shift.
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I mean, you know, in a wonderful.
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Uh, I had never put my story out there where I didn't know
Nancy Debra Barrows:
who was going to hear it.
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I didn't know where it was going to go, but I was doing a live
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event in Kentucky about childhood trauma in my childhood trauma.
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And I realized that the moment making Nancy you're part of the problem.
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If you won't say the words, how can you expect anyone else to talk about?
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And in that moment, it just was what.
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Needed to happen and I was inspired to do so.
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And it started this amazing journey.
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So to back up with the story, to the story itself, you know, um, I was, and
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again, I know this is a hard topic to talk about to the point of dive right in.
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I, I like to give everyone permission to react.
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However, like whatever comes up for them is about judgment.
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And if you're having a feeling, I probably have the feeling.
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I'm sure there's reserved judgment for me.
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Um, but I was sexually abused by my grandfather and it started around
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the age of four or five years old.
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And it continued until I was 16.
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And at 16, the reason it actually stopped.
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And I had no idea that these things existed or were in place, but a mandated
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reporter, um, I said, you know, did what they were supposed to do there reported
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it to the proper agencies and, you know, this process was launched, you know?
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So, um, I had carefully guarded the secret my whole life as if my life depended on
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it, because that's what it felt like.
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Um, and here it was literally unleashed on my family.
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Everyone knew I was not ready for that.
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I was ready for it to stop, but I was not ready to.
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You know, have people, my parents look at me and cry going through their version of
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the trauma of questioning in themselves.
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So, you know, at 16 years old they said something to another friend
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and I would give her a lot of credit for saying something to him.
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The.
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Here I am.
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I was at a summer program at the time.
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And some of the people at the program said, we have to tell your parents,
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this is, this is what has to happen.
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So we have to do that.
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What we can do is give you the choice if our calling them in
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time and where you are calm.
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And, you know, I've made so many choices in this journey that we're
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from, I don't know where from, you know, and I'm sure you've had similar
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moments where you don't know where.
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Voice or choice comes from, but it's deep within you.
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And it's been there the whole time.
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And so given the choice, I said, no, I want to tell them
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I wanted it to come from me.
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I didn't want it to come from a stranger.
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And so, yeah, I call mom and dad from the summer program.
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It's like, no, I, hi, how are you?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Great.
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I have to tell you something.
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And I told them that my grandfather had been in pro credit with me.
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They were an are, continue to be the most perfect parents for me.
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Receiving of the news and how they handle everything will be forward.
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And we can talk in detail more about that.
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Um, really shaped my recovery recovery.
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My, my, my journey back to wholeness is probably a better way of describing
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it, um, because they they're one of their questions to me at the time
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was, do you want us to pick you up?
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And I said, no, I'm happy here.
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Like I was happy and safe and my summer program, nothing is happening.
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So.
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Within the first few hours of my abuse being disclosed, I was given
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two really important choices that gave me control in a time that I had none.
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It, it, it also told me that people around me trusted my gut, my intuition,
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my decisions, and I could trust myself.
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Because there was a lot of time, like, I don't know, my gut told me one thing,
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but something else that's happening.
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It's so confusing at that point.
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What Sprite, but what do I want?
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What do I need?
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But, but with my, you know, what is, what, what is, what are my
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cells telling me is to do here?
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And so where this rich from me unleashed to, without knowing it two huge gifts
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for different communities, people by asking me questions, giving me.
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Letting me have that bit of control of how things would go, where I could.
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Um, and again, it was huge reinforcement that I could trust myself.
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Other people trusted me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, so that happens.
Collier Landry:
Hey guys.
Collier Landry:
I hope you're enjoying this week's episode of moving past murder.
Collier Landry:
I want to remind everyone that I go live on Instagram every Tuesday at 11:00 AM.
Collier Landry:
Pacific 2:00 PM.
Collier Landry:
Eastern time on my Instagram channel, which is @collierlandry on Instagram.
Collier Landry:
I answer your live questions and answers and discuss this week's latest episode.
Collier Landry:
So please join me at 11:00 AM.
Collier Landry:
Pacific 2:00 PM.
Collier Landry:
Eastern, every single Tuesday for live Q and a with me, your host call your.
Collier Landry:
I'll see you there.
Collier Landry:
So I want to just touch upon something that you said, and it's
Collier Landry:
very interesting to hear you because you echo a lot of my sentiments.
Collier Landry:
So I did a Ted talk a couple of years ago, um, about my, my pursuit
Collier Landry:
to move through my trauma and sort of my idea of that an actual.
Collier Landry:
When you're going through trauma.
Collier Landry:
So for me, I know that my mother is dad.
Collier Landry:
When I wake up the morning of December 31st and I immediately spring into action.
Collier Landry:
Like, I'm gonna not let my, I'm not going to let my father get
Collier Landry:
away from, get away with this.
Collier Landry:
Right.
Collier Landry:
So that started this whole journey.
Collier Landry:
That twenty-five days later they built her body up from my father's house and another
Collier Landry:
state and this, that, and the other.
Collier Landry:
Right.
Collier Landry:
But one of the things that I I've been very.
Collier Landry:
And I feel that I was blessed and I feel that you are blessed in
Collier Landry:
that same way, despite the horrific circumstances surrounding this is
Collier Landry:
that you were given a choice right.
Collier Landry:
Then to tell your parents and to take action.
Collier Landry:
And I feel a lot of times because.
Collier Landry:
Especially as a child, right.
Collier Landry:
And you're, you don't really understand the concept of good and evil and, and,
Collier Landry:
and how cruel this world can be at times.
Collier Landry:
Um, but being given the opportunity to sort of, for lack of a
Collier Landry:
better word, play grownup or.
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At least lean into it and go, okay, well now I'm going to do something
Collier Landry:
about it is very empowering.
Collier Landry:
And I feel a lot of times that the opposite happens for four children, uh,
Collier Landry:
that are in situations like this, where they become cuddled by the parents.
Collier Landry:
And not saying that your parents didn't love and care about you, but
Collier Landry:
they tend to, to coddle the, the child and, and, and don't get me wrong.
Collier Landry:
I'm not saying that this is something.
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That shouldn't be done, that you shouldn't take care of your children
Collier Landry:
or you shouldn't, you shouldn't love them and hold them, but it feels
Collier Landry:
a lot of times when you, when the parent takes then takes over, it
Collier Landry:
makes the child feel more helpless.
Collier Landry:
And I feel that even with the fact that my family did abandoned
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me, father's side said, look, you're testifying as your father.
Collier Landry:
I mean, I'm the reason why he even got clots and then.
Collier Landry:
The my mother's side of the family, because of what he did to my, my cousins
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had wanted nothing to do with me.
Collier Landry:
I was sort of forced into that situation to just deal with it.
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But I feel at the end of the day, as hard as it was, I'm better off for it.
Collier Landry:
And I feel that you're echoing that same thing.
Collier Landry:
It was a very long way, and it wouldn't be a winded way of saying.
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I feel you and I, I understand, and I can empathize with that.
Collier Landry:
And, and really, and I think that's why when you and I initially had a
Collier Landry:
conversation where you, you felt that for me, and we just connected on that level,
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it's even though our trauma is different in circumstance, it's still something.
Collier Landry:
And we're always looking to ways to take power over that, but also empower others.
Collier Landry:
And I feel when people reach out to me after seeing the film, they, they become.
Collier Landry:
My vulnerability in the film, your vulnerability with telling your story
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publicly in the last year and change really inspires people to, to take a
Collier Landry:
look at their own life and go, okay, if they can do it, I can do it too.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Absolutely.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I agree.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And there's so much that you're saying is like, you know, with me too, what happened
Nancy Debra Barrows:
first happened to us without a choice.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yes, we had no control.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That whole piece of saying, no, I have a choice here was very new for me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And it sounds like from what I knew about you, um, because of the way your
Nancy Debra Barrows:
household was with your dad, who he was, you didn't have a lot of choices, either.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Lots of things were happening to you as well.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And so that piece of being given some control was tremendous.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I say all the time, People, aren't always sure how it could possibly be,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
but I'm grateful for all of them a long time to be grateful for all of
Nancy Debra Barrows:
it, but I'm grateful for all of it, because several things, one thing is
Nancy Debra Barrows:
the conversation we're having is like, I can understand, I can empathize, right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I've got that piece.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And it's not just with other, with people.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Who've had, you know, circumstances that near mine.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Any trauma, that's sort of a silly thing to say, but the beauty of trauma
Nancy Debra Barrows:
is it's, it's pretty well prescriptive on what, what happens or what could
Nancy Debra Barrows:
happen, which means it doesn't have to be the same trauma for us to
Nancy Debra Barrows:
understand the steps, understanding the feelings, to understand the reactions.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We can all do that for one another.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
The circumstances might've been.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, but our ability to understand, right, and, and have gone through at least some
Nancy Debra Barrows:
of the similar steps toward our journey and becoming qual and healed were similar.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We had to jump a lot of the same hurdles.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So I appreciate being able to do that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I believe that my always believed that my story was sicker than me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It wasn't about, and so I didn't know how, or when, or where it was going to happen,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
but I knew it was gonna reach people.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I knew it was going to help.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And the beauty is I started telling my story, knowing
Nancy Debra Barrows:
it was going to help others.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was going to impact others.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was giving permission to make them feel less alone, seeing just whatever it was.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
They weren't the only one.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I never expected.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, it sort of was, uh, I, it would be really nice if someone reached out to
Nancy Debra Barrows:
me and I could know for certain, right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, but it really was doing it, knowing it was going to help someone.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And then when people started to contact me is when I first really started to
Nancy Debra Barrows:
understand the power of sharing my story.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Because as you said earlier, like in the opening, there are so many.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
People who go through trauma, who don't have the positive supports
Nancy Debra Barrows:
and circumstances that you and I do.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So when you think about sexual abuse, I did experience an eating disorder.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I have experienced major depressive episodes.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
The thing I struggle with today is still my mood.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, but I was somehow.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My four or five-year-old count me to survive till six to seven, till eight
Nancy Debra Barrows:
to all the way through, until I had this opportunity to actually deal with it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And from there again, all of the pieces that fell into place that allowed me
Nancy Debra Barrows:
to get through it in a whole human being is another extraordinary step.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I didn't turn to drugs.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I didn't become promiscuous.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I didn't.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There are so many pitfalls in this.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, of waves people numb their pain or choose to beat themselves up
Nancy Debra Barrows:
because that's how they're feeling.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like they feel that's what they deserve.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Uh, it didn't do that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And then when I found my voice and tell my story, that's extraordinary to me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And that's what I was hearing from him.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's my life.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I've, I've lived this life.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So none of it is extraordinary.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's when other people hear it, I get they're like, whoa, that's a lot.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
But what was extraordinary about it is that I can come through
Nancy Debra Barrows:
it the way I did and talk about and how been that to me is huge.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That's that's the piece that was always bigger than me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, Yeah.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Again, so many cases and things that I've been through that
Nancy Debra Barrows:
have made me who I am today.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And it took me a really long time to say, I like who I am.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I know.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I mean, I was, you talked to me in my late teens and twenties.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was broken beyond repair.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That's what I would have told you, broken beyond repair, which is another reason
Nancy Debra Barrows:
why I think it's really important that we share the ugly snotty unsexy noodle.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Because show up and you hear a see me today and it's like, how am I relatable
Nancy Debra Barrows:
to someone that's, you know, in the thick of it, I didn't, I didn't get out of bed.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I didn't shower.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I hated the world.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I went through a lot of ugly snotty unsexy in the middle, and
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I think that's the part really.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We're all out.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You're living life and it's always incredible to you
Nancy Debra Barrows:
all out here, living mice.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So we know how hard it can be, how much it can suck, but no one wants
Nancy Debra Barrows:
to talk about it or post about it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And so that was, that was the space I showed up in and I created the hashtag
Nancy Debra Barrows:
radiating email campaign for that reason.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Let's just show up as we are, take off your mask, receive that
Nancy Debra Barrows:
unconditional love, receive that unconditional acceptance and
Nancy Debra Barrows:
learn to live in that space.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
For many of us, it's very uncomfortable to actually be seen and heard.
Collier Landry:
Yeah, absolutely.
Collier Landry:
Absolutely.
Collier Landry:
It's interesting with radiating real.
Collier Landry:
And w one of the things when I made the film is there was a, there's a point in
Collier Landry:
the, in the film when I go to the police station with the lead investigator,
Collier Landry:
Dave and I look at the case file, which has photos of my mother's body.
Collier Landry:
And when I was in.
Collier Landry:
Before we filmed that scene.
Collier Landry:
Uh, Dave the detective and his wife were like, you're not going to see this.
Collier Landry:
And I said, and I never didn't want to be there.
Collier Landry:
Wasn't like, oh, I really want to do this.
Collier Landry:
But, but part of me did and, and, and what was even, maybe be even more
Collier Landry:
accountable to, this is the fact that I said, this is what I'm doing here.
Collier Landry:
We're making a film.
Collier Landry:
And this is about vulnerability and being authentic.
Collier Landry:
And this is that, like you said, the snotty real part that, you know, the
Collier Landry:
snotty unsexy part is, is, is allowing yourself to break down those walls.
Collier Landry:
And, and just be like, this is me, I'm just exposed.
Collier Landry:
This is who I am.
Collier Landry:
And when I think about just stories that I gravitate to toward not even think about
Collier Landry:
my own story, but stories that I gravitate toward with yours or whoever it might
Collier Landry:
be, that is what rings the truest to me.
Collier Landry:
And I don't mean.
Collier Landry:
That I would necessarily have to be someone who has gone through
Collier Landry:
the circumstances that I've gone through to feel that way.
Collier Landry:
I think that just human connection, when you see that, you know, there
Collier Landry:
are people, of course, that will take advantage of that as a weakness.
Collier Landry:
But I think for the most part, the, he, the deeper part of the human connection is
Collier Landry:
that we really just go that radiates with us and we go, that could be me, or that's.
Collier Landry:
You know, and, and for me, when I sat to make the film, I said,
Collier Landry:
you know, I want, I want to change my life and impact one person.
Collier Landry:
And that's it because I thought there's a kid just like me
Collier Landry:
is going through all this.
Collier Landry:
And just doesn't think that there's a hope in the world.
Collier Landry:
They'll see the film and they'll go, okay.
Collier Landry:
That guy gets.
Collier Landry:
Right.
Collier Landry:
And I feel that that's with your story as well.
Collier Landry:
And sharing it publicly is, is the goal is just to speak to that one voice.
Collier Landry:
Then of course, what happens is, is you find out that, that that one person is
Collier Landry:
actually 10, which becomes a hundred, which becomes 1,010 thousand a bit Bubba.
Collier Landry:
And, and that's the true power of.
Collier Landry:
Not only the human connection and, and the human spirit, but also
Collier Landry:
showing resilience in the face of, you know, seemingly insurmountable odds.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And that's as the human part.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, that's what resonates with us.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If you're telling this impactful emotional story and in the circumstance
Nancy Debra Barrows:
for the first time, like on I've seen your film and it was moving, it
Nancy Debra Barrows:
would have been really weird for you to cut out the part where you cry.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's like our human, like what, what happened to that piece?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I think our showing up is vulnerable and especially men showing
Nancy Debra Barrows:
up vulnerable because they're told it's a weakness and we need to flip
Nancy Debra Barrows:
the script and be like, no, our vulnerability is our greatest strength.
Collier Landry:
Yeah, absolutely strength and vulnerability, for sure.
Collier Landry:
Now I want to touch upon this because you know, when you and I were discussing
Collier Landry:
doing this episode of moving past murder, one of the things you wanted to
Collier Landry:
really be clear about is, is you feel in your work that you've discovered
Collier Landry:
that a lot of people, when they hear the term sexual violence, sexual
Collier Landry:
assault, they just attribute that to.
Collier Landry:
And as we know, and in less, and I, and you know, we, we gain, we engage
Collier Landry:
that said in this conversation before the conversation we're having now,
Collier Landry:
but one of the things I wanted to say is, you know, unless it's involves
Collier Landry:
like some organization of the Catholic church, that's got that sexy and
Collier Landry:
oh, you know, taboo feel to it and, you know, priests or pedophiles
Collier Landry:
narrative, we don't really think about.
Collier Landry:
And I know that that's something you're really, you're really
Collier Landry:
passionate about is examining that.
Collier Landry:
So have you found out, have you found that the people that may reach out
Collier Landry:
to you are a, both sexes and are, are dealing with the same sort of trauma?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yes.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I think for me, um, we do, we need men out of the narrative, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That's the statistics show us that men are experiencing sexual trauma.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah, right along with them.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and if, when I started telling my story and I wanted to change, I
Nancy Debra Barrows:
wanted to be in a woman who changed the narrative on sexual abuse, because
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I will be 49 in a couple of weeks.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was 16 when my abuse first.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
The needle hasn't moved at all.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like we are no more comfortable talking about the statistics have not shifted.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There's no change.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So yes, we need to talk about it, but we have to have real honest conversations
Nancy Debra Barrows:
about that are uncomfortable.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And so like, one of the things I say when I speak is listen, my body
Nancy Debra Barrows:
did exactly what it should do, and it's an uncomfortable conversation
Nancy Debra Barrows:
to hear that sexual touch Miami.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Had pleasure associated with, but there's someone out there that's feeling
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that that's been in that situation and feels all the things I did dirty,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
guilty, broken rock, you know, because it didn't want this, but when the
Nancy Debra Barrows:
body did exactly what it was built to do, so these, these conversations
Nancy Debra Barrows:
are not easy, but they need to be had, because it's where there's been.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
No change.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There's been.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So honest conversation since with the fact that men are sexually assaulted,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
they go through sexual trauma.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
No one's immune to this.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, part of a real honest conversation has to be us taking
Nancy Debra Barrows:
responsibility for how we are handling it or not handling it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Are we having those important conversations with our children?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Everybody thinks it's a sex talk and I'm here to tell you it is not, it is
Nancy Debra Barrows:
the farthest thing from a sex talk.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It is a boundary.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It is a con having control over your person and your space talk.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, when my nieces and nephews and little in the bathtub, when I
Nancy Debra Barrows:
would bait them, you know, when I got old enough to sort of like participate
Nancy Debra Barrows:
in the bath process, I always ask, is it okay if I wash your vagina?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Because it's not my body, it's yours and I can help you.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I want to make sure that your needs with the whole point of your
Nancy Debra Barrows:
bath is to get your body, that I can teach you how to think about.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I asked three, hi, because one week it might've been a yes.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And then next week it might've been a nap and that was perfect.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We'll be fine.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And that's what we need you to do to talk to our kids about the boundaries.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And we need to be okay with their choices.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Now, the other side of that is we have to hold up our bargain as adults.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and whether it's a child that comes to a sprint adult, who's 50
Nancy Debra Barrows:
years old and has never told anything.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That 15 year old is still the child that went through the trauma.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
When we, as adults have to make a promise and keep her promise
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that we are going to be able to loving the non-judgmentally except.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Both what someone is saying and the person I was so worried when people
Nancy Debra Barrows:
found out about my abuse, that they would completely change how they thought
Nancy Debra Barrows:
about me, how they felt about me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, I had all these thoughts about myself.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My abuse went on until I was 16 years old.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
First.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I knew it was wrong.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Hey, guess what?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I never thought of saying no, I never thought of telling anyone.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It just was not an option.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And so at some point, my brain is like, wow, well, I guess you're participating.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You're just as at fault.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There's, there's so much going on, but we need to be the people who say,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
thank you for sharing that with me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I know that couldn't have been easy.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like I love you and powerfully and, and whatever our reaction is, that would
Nancy Debra Barrows:
be the, you know, full on emotional outbursts because we feel it right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, we have to reserve that for our own.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and I think we're all capable of it and that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Honest truth is if we were talking to our kids and we held up our end
Nancy Debra Barrows:
of the bargain, um, there'll be very few places for perpetrators to hide.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, I used to say to my brother and my brother, his sister was
Nancy Debra Barrows:
sexually abused by his grandfather.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
He didn't talk to caregivers about anything.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and I said to him, one day, I said, no, no, any caregiver
Nancy Debra Barrows:
teacher, you leave in a preschool.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well on the side, how to conversation and let them know, Hey, Nick talked to our
Nancy Debra Barrows:
kids about boundaries and their bodies.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And if they were to come to you during the day while they're with you, um, we
Nancy Debra Barrows:
expect for you to handle it this way.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
This is what I told them.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
People will do.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If we ever need to tell someone and like, we need you to do that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So it does two things, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's now informing other adults about hopefully thinking, wow, I wouldn't
Nancy Debra Barrows:
have thought to do that necessarily, but again, If someone is a predator,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
they're looking for certain things.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If they know that their secret won't be kept, they're not going to take even
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that first step really it's too much.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So once we start having these conversations and get comfortable
Nancy Debra Barrows:
with being uncomfortable, things start to change, and that's
Nancy Debra Barrows:
true of most things, right.
Collier Landry:
It's interesting that you bring up the narrative
Collier Landry:
with children and talking about.
Collier Landry:
Uh, you know, I, I watched a Ted talk probably a couple of years ago.
Collier Landry:
This woman did on pornography and, uh, her experience with it as far as studying.
Collier Landry:
And I believe she was a psychologist who was from like Norway or Sweden or one of
Collier Landry:
those advanced Scandinavian countries, as progressive as our society has.
Collier Landry:
I feel in a great many ways we've made major progress despite what the
Collier Landry:
political narrative is on, you know, uh, racial justice and, and equality
Collier Landry:
of the sexes and things of that nature.
Collier Landry:
Of course we have farther to go, but one of the things that has not advanced,
Collier Landry:
at least in my opinion, I think maybe Europe, the same mindset is, uh, the
Collier Landry:
narrative on unsexy on discussion around sexual human sexuality, uh,
Collier Landry:
discussion around sex education.
Collier Landry:
In schools and even just in amongst families, whether that has to do with a
Collier Landry:
religious element or just a taboo element, or whether it's just a topic that's just
Collier Landry:
very uncomfortable for people still.
Collier Landry:
But one of the key things that I took away from that particular
Collier Landry:
talk, just because you don't talk to your kids about sex doesn't mean
Collier Landry:
that they're not going to learn.
Collier Landry:
And one of the things that she was saying is pornography is now being used.
Collier Landry:
As sex education for these kids and how that is creating
Collier Landry:
a whole different narrative.
Collier Landry:
And, and I had a, I had a friend whose daughter was, uh, recently sexually
Collier Landry:
assaulted and raped, um, in the last week.
Collier Landry:
And it's very tragic and heartbreaking and she was drugged and it's just terrible.
Collier Landry:
She's very young.
Collier Landry:
She's 20, 20 something, 24, I believe.
Collier Landry:
And it doesn't matter what age really, but obviously.
Collier Landry:
You know, it's the violation and we can go into that in a second, but
Collier Landry:
the brutality of what this guy did.
Collier Landry:
And, and so this particular.
Collier Landry:
You're saying, if you look at pornography, you have sexual violence and you have
Collier Landry:
people choking, there's choking involved, and then there's aggressive behavior.
Collier Landry:
But then on top of that, there's this, this, this undertone of incest
Collier Landry:
and step-mom step son, you know, stepfather, stepdaughter, father,
Collier Landry:
daughter, you know, whatever it is.
Collier Landry:
And it's.
Collier Landry:
That's what's out there.
Collier Landry:
And if we don't, I mean, I personally feel if we don't and not that I have
Collier Landry:
children, but if we don't start to control this narrative, then we're just
Collier Landry:
letting these things do our dirty work for us, because we don't want to get
Collier Landry:
our hands dirty, or we don't want to have those uncomfortable conversations.
Collier Landry:
And you, you know, given your circumstance, where, where do you
Collier Landry:
think it is that we can really begin to take back that near.
Collier Landry:
For ourselves and really control where the compensation is.
Collier Landry:
Where do you think that even starts?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I mean, it has to start, if we can't talk about
Nancy Debra Barrows:
healthy sex, we're never going to be able to talk about the things that
Nancy Debra Barrows:
happen in the world of deviants, right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That are outside of that, rape incest, all that kind of stuff.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You didn't know, exposing young people to.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah, there's, there's, there's such a spectrum of sexual trauma out there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, we don't often talk about some of the less egregious offenses, um,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
because rape and molestation, right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That's knocks you off your feet, but it's also not fair because people have
Nancy Debra Barrows:
experienced different sexual trauma.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Start to doubt if it's really sexual trauma, it's like people
Nancy Debra Barrows:
will give themselves to their part.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, mine wasn't as bad as yours.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, trauma is trauma, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's when your system is overloaded, it can't handle it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It has a common response to whatever it is, right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If your system was overloaded, you know, it's it's trauma.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And so it's not the little lap, but if we can't talk about healthy sex, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
How are we going to talk about anything else around sex?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So for me, it starts really early again, when I was bathing my nieces and nephews,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
two, three years old, say vagina safe.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like label.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We can't even as a society label things in the body, like as
Nancy Debra Barrows:
properly, we have all these needs from that make it seem shameful.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That removing that shame around sex in our bodies.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, there's, you know, again, brought up a lot of opinions about porn, but, you know,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I think in a lot of ways it's damaging in, in general, but I think about like, well,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
there's nothing really realistic about.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I mean in, even if you've had sex that way.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I'm sorry.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There was some awkward moment.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There was some weird noise that happened there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Sex never goes off without a hitch, even when it's perfect.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, there's always something I always say, like, if you're made out of
Nancy Debra Barrows:
sexist, yes, you have to be able to buy the condoms, ready to buy the condoms,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
but you also have to be ready for things to happen that are really awkward,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
weird, and potentially horrifying.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If, depending on the situation and again, that, that piece of like, well,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that's not showing by what sex is.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And it also is setting up these really huge expectations.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Not only of like, you know, how we should perform, you know, both sides
Nancy Debra Barrows:
and how long, how fast, how hard, you know, how loud we should be.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like it's, it's all there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's prescribing one way of doing it, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Forget about, we haven't even started talking about body image
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that comes like through porn.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, everything from, you know, like I'm too fat.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My boots, aren't perfect by my vagina's not shaved completely.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
No one's going to love me, you know, two men and, and worrying about
Nancy Debra Barrows:
their size and their performance and what we're seeing and what kids are,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
are being exposed to adults too.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Is.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Sex.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's, it's a movie it's creative fiction.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And again, even if you've been in those scenarios, right, it's, it's the lighting.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Isn't perfect.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
The body isn't perfect.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know what that something is.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It doesn't go.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's just not how sex works.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So I think we, again, have to be comfortable talking about our bodies.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We have to be comfortable being honest about that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and I won't say, you know, if you're religious and you believe it should
Nancy Debra Barrows:
be with a married man and woman, but at least teach your child flat and
Nancy Debra Barrows:
what sex is, what sex means there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I remember, um, my brother's four years older than I, and I remember being
Nancy Debra Barrows:
at the dinner table with my family.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I always eat dinner together.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was one of the things that we made sure we made time for.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I remember they were talking about foreplay and I had no idea
Nancy Debra Barrows:
what they were talking about.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I was getting really frustrated.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like, what are you talking about?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
What you, and like, I got really upset and left the table and, you know, nobody
Nancy Debra Barrows:
was comfortable telling me what it was.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And eventually, you know, maybe and someone came to me with like, Hey, this
Nancy Debra Barrows:
is kind of all the stuff that happens before sex itself, a sexual touching.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's not more information than I needed, but to understand, you
Nancy Debra Barrows:
know, all the parts and pieces.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, for me, I had so much more, um, sexual experience and knowledge
Nancy Debra Barrows:
than the average kid, my age always.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and it was always fun to try and hide that too.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like, you know, like your friends are talking and I'm like,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
you didn't do that because that's not.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There's so many parts and pieces it, and I keep saying that, but my brain
Nancy Debra Barrows:
could go to another, another, another.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And the reality is when you start getting comfortable talking about our bodies,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
what our bodies are capable of, pleasure, sex is meant to be pleasurable, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yes, it has the other, uh, there's other pieces that is for procreation,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
but it doesn't mean when you're having sex to try and get pregnant.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Again, we just have to like everything else we weren't talking about,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
like get a little uncomfortable because in the end that conversation
Nancy Debra Barrows:
is going to be so valuable.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and allow, you know, even if the conversation is about, well, you know,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I know sometimes you see pornography, like, you know, a guy will hit a woman
Nancy Debra Barrows:
or poor hair, you know, that's not something everyone enjoys and you,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
you don't have to say yes to that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So like even those conversations was, I can imagine, like,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I don't have kids, either.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My nieces and nephews were always like my babies.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was thinking they'd have to talk.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, I remember when my oldest niece was getting her period, I brought
Nancy Debra Barrows:
her a little thing and I was like, here's an extra pair of underwear
Nancy Debra Barrows:
because inevitably you're going to.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So here they are.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You don't want to leave the dirty ones in the trash.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So here's, what is it?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Black guy wasn't here for come back.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Here's a tampon.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Do you want to know how to use it?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Let me show you what happens when I put it in a sink full of water.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
This is what's going to happen.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
This is why you can just rest, relax and know that if you're doing what you
Nancy Debra Barrows:
need to do, you're like, you know what I
Collier Landry:
mean?
Collier Landry:
Like you're pretty, you're pretty advanced.
Collier Landry:
You're in an advanced, uh, auntie
Nancy Debra Barrows:
advanced on TV.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Never wanted them to feel shame around their body.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I knew the world would be sending them all sorts of messages.
Collier Landry:
It's a, it's a myriad of things that creates
Collier Landry:
these issues, I believe.
Collier Landry:
And so you can't just pin it on one belief system or one way of life.
Collier Landry:
It, it just, it crosses the whole spectrum.
Collier Landry:
Getting back to your, your process of reconciling with what
Collier Landry:
happened to you as a child and.
Collier Landry:
Carrying that into an adult into adulthood.
Collier Landry:
And I think that there are probably people who are listening, who are, of course
Collier Landry:
empathizing with your situation may have gone through a similar situation, but
Collier Landry:
also, uh, I'm sure a lot of our, our, my listeners and viewers really want to know
Collier Landry:
is when this happened and it came and you, and you took the step to tell your parents
Collier Landry:
and your family, how, how did they cope?
Collier Landry:
How was that received by them?
Collier Landry:
What was their, what was their reaction?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I wasn't there to see my mom, mom and dad's reaction because
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was, uh, you know, but I know on the phone, they were very calm and I know
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that's not how they recruited them inside.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And they, again, you know, sort of in shock, You know, ask some clarifying
Nancy Debra Barrows:
questions that didn't ask too much and I'm going to get me control to stay.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, I did, however, see my brother's reaction, your brother and I have been
Nancy Debra Barrows:
very close and very close, and I remember telling him and him having no idea.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And that's freaking me out.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like that was scarier to me than any, like having any reaction.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I remember going into my closet crying because I it's like, I have
Nancy Debra Barrows:
no idea what he's thinking or feeling about me, the situation I got, nothing.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I had no idea.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And about three minutes later, the door opens and he sits on the floor
Nancy Debra Barrows:
with me and we sat there for awhile.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, like it, it, it, wasn't easy to see people's hurt.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
In the beginning, I very felt very much felt that I was, I was causing
Nancy Debra Barrows:
all this script when the reality was that hurt was always being caused.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It just wasn't out there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, you know, it, it wasn't my doing, um, it wasn't my deal.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And everyone around me would have rather been hurting together knowing
Nancy Debra Barrows:
that I was safe, um, is the reality.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And it took me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
To actually stop and think about, but each one of those people in my
Nancy Debra Barrows:
life went through their own inner journey with trauma while traumatize.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I mean, you know, my mom, it's her dad.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My parents thought they were good parents that when we can give decisions
Nancy Debra Barrows:
and you know, people always think why aren't there science shouldn't
Nancy Debra Barrows:
they have been able to see your town.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, I'll tell you something, right, exactly.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
But I was like, wait, so wait until you're there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I want to remind you as a teenager, did you ever fake your parents out?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Were you ever able to go to the party that they said no to you?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Whatever you did come home and they still didn't know.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We're all capable of acting when you feel your life depends on it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was an Oscar worthy actress in terms of keeping my secret.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah, I was captain of my volleyball team.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was in of my class.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I did volunteer work for the American cancer society.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was in the right social spaces.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There was no reason to look at me twice.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There was a very scary moment.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My mom said actually, Telling my story.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I then went back and said, oh, Hey mom, dad with this.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And again, I've said a million times, my mom and dad had the perfect modern black
Nancy Debra Barrows:
for me because the two reactions I got, like, my mom was like, it's your story?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I'm so proud of you.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
That was, that was her thing.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And she relayed to me and story of, I had ordered therapy, um,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
when the very beginning and I went.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I couldn't, there was nothing to be done that I would say,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
oh, did you move a plant?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like that was about as far as like I could get in the session and I
Nancy Debra Barrows:
would turn around on the couch.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Literally.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I thought of eight and I was able to pull myself into this little ball, face
Nancy Debra Barrows:
the corner and just sit like an egg in the corner for the entire 15 minutes.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And my parents came to a session at the end and.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, the doctor said she's not ready when she does.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
She'll knock on someone's door.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And as soon as he said it, this time I turned around, I was like this.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And my mom said it terrified, terrified her because she had never seen that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
She never seen what I was going through.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, all of that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was covering up and she was worried.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I wouldn't make it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and seeing that moment.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And you know, when I told her I was telling my story,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
there was a lot of, and so.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Because again, she, she saw it at its worth at its worst.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And to see me come through it now, my dad is, yeah, it's just a little
Nancy Debra Barrows:
bit different in his vernacular.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And, um, and he's like, you know, what, if somebody wants to come to me, but I can't
Nancy Debra Barrows:
believe your dad is talking about it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was like, that's fine.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I'll tell them that's my kick-ass.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah, that was it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And to get permission, this is another thing, why can't we handle this together?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Did a really great job with putting this together.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
My mom and I can have conversations about it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
We can have conversations about what I'm doing when she watched the talks.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I do, you know, shows that I'm on my dad.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Can't be still can't.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Something that was too painful for him, even though we had this brief
Nancy Debra Barrows:
conversation that even though you've seen me out of the day and now that I'm
Nancy Debra Barrows:
okay, it just still hurts his heart, that I had to go through so much.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, you know, and so I don't want anyone to judge how they work.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's most of my family, my brother, and sister-in-law
Nancy Debra Barrows:
can't watch the shows either.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, it's just, it's too much.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and I think, you know, I always warn them.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There's, there's really not a whole lot of detail about what happened,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
but there are gonna be things that you haven't heard before.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So just for them to be prepared for that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
But yeah, my, my journey.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It is long.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It is steps forward, steps back.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was believing I was broken beyond repair.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was going to bed at night.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I'm grateful.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I never had true suicidal ideation, but I would talk to the universe and
Nancy Debra Barrows:
say, Hey tomorrow, someone's going to get a terminal cancer diagnosis.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Someone that's a family that really violet give it to me and stuff.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If I had gotten hit by a bus or an apartment.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It didn't matter to me at certain points.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And there were times I remember conversation with my therapist,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
which is a whole nother conversation.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
How you find your therapist?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
How do we know it's your therapist?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
She sh our mental health system way unaccessible, um, sadly another
Nancy Debra Barrows:
conversation, like I said, but, um, she was telling me, like,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I felt like I was stalking.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was getting nowhere.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was always going to be like this.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And she had.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, what if I told you there's a piece of chocolate fee on that island
Nancy Debra Barrows:
and you have to sit in there, right?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You're going to, you're going to swim there to get it.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Cause it's there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I'm telling you it's there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, and I said to her, I'm like, I can't like talk with pic that much.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Literally.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like I was like, I don't care about it doesn't mean anything to me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It was so far removed from what I was feeling ever thought I was capable.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah, I was in anorexic for years and there is a control there for sure.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
But what I understand about myself now is I was punishing my body.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like it had the trade me in the abuse.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Why would I nourish it, eat it, like, why would I do that?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And quite honestly, back to that, I wasn't suicidal, but I wanted
Nancy Debra Barrows:
it to disappear and I was going to do it by any means possible.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
If I, if I could shrink myself down to nothing and fall
Nancy Debra Barrows:
through it back just fine by me.
Collier Landry:
Yeah, it's really, really powerful what you're saying, and
Collier Landry:
I can relate to it on so many levels.
Collier Landry:
Um,
Collier Landry:
yeah, a lot of people, you know, and there's nothing
Collier Landry:
wrong with, with retreating and assessing and, and, and grieving.
Collier Landry:
And in a lot of ways you have to sort of grieve.
Collier Landry:
That loss of your yourself in those moments.
Collier Landry:
And that's just all part of the healing process.
Collier Landry:
And it's, it's, it's wonderful to have an open conversation with you
Collier Landry:
about this because it's, I really feel that a lot of our, uh, a lot of my
Collier Landry:
viewers are gonna are gonna really, really enjoy this, this episode.
Collier Landry:
Thank
Nancy Debra Barrows:
you.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And that's the, that's the thing.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
This is that at least not an sexy part.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Let's talk about the two steps are the ones that back they mentioned before.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, I, I wasn't this person, my whole life, you
Nancy Debra Barrows:
go and take snapshots of me.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It is very different.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I mean, I confronted my grandfather when I was 20 years old and it speeds my first
Nancy Debra Barrows:
major depression depressive episode.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And I ended up dropping out of college.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was probably in my forties before I could even say I dropped out of college.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
He left, he took a semester.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Well, I dropped out.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I was a hot mess and I dropped out of college.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
You know, the confrontation.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
So much with that.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And, and we can talk about that, but I think for most people, this
Nancy Debra Barrows:
piece where we can talk about steps forward and steps back, or just not
Nancy Debra Barrows:
believing, there's an outcome out there.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Um, but you want to live is very real and it's okay to pause.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like we said, it's okay to pause.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
It's not okay to stop.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
When are our ability to build community around us?
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Yeah.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Have our resources and remind ourselves, like when you feel in that moment,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
you can't make it go another moment.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Like you already have, by the time you've had the thought you made it
Nancy Debra Barrows:
to another moment, another moment.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
And for me, I always say I need it to 100% when I met, because
Nancy Debra Barrows:
it still happens to this day.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
There are days when I'm like, I just can't keep it want to,
Nancy Debra Barrows:
and I can't, I don't care.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
Right.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I don't even care that I don't pay.
Nancy Debra Barrows:
I made it through the one
Collier Landry:
and some of my, um, and this is why you are one of LinkedIn's
Collier Landry:
top 50, most impactful people of 2021.
Collier Landry:
Uh, Nancy Browers.
Collier Landry:
Thank you so much for joining the program.
Collier Landry:
My guest has been Nancy Barrows and w just a wonderful conversation.
Collier Landry:
I hope you guys gleaned as much from this as I did for now.
Collier Landry:
I'm Collier Landry and this is moving past.
Collier Landry:
Thanks.
Collier Landry:
Y'all
Collier Landry:
this podcast is made possible by support from listeners, just like you.
Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
And if you want to go a step further, we do have a Patrion page.
Collier Landry:
We also have a PayPal link to donate to the program, which helps keep the
Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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Collier Landry:
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