Message to Amir Locke's Mom: “You’re your son’s voice now”

Moving Past Murder - Episode 24

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[00:00:00] Collier Landry: My guest today on the podcast is Ray Nowosielski. Chelsea was one of my producers on a murder in Mansfield. He has been a guest on this show previously when he was pre releasing his podcast after the uprising. And now we are back to talk about season two, a surprise that he has for us that came out of his podcast [00:00:20] and the case.

[00:00:21] That's a, that's really bringing headlines right now in the news, which is the Amir lock case of the no-knock warrant. We'll get into it.

[00:00:30] Testimony

[00:00:30] continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland county history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Maureen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home [00:00:40] in

[00:00:40] Erie, Pennsylvania.

[00:00:42] I never harmed her at all

[00:00:43] the 12

[00:00:44] year old son of accused murder and Mansfield. Dr. John Boyle finally took the stand.

[00:00:52] And the jury in this case, I confront my incarcerated father in prison. And finally, [00:01:00] I'm going to have that moment where I can ask this, man, why dad? Why did you do this? Everyone knows is premeditated. What I want to know is I've told you the truth. This is a psychopath. He's believing it while he's saying it do you think you are a sociopath?[00:01:20]

[00:01:21] So my guest today is Ray Nowosielski. I am pleased to welcome him back to this program.

[00:01:26] Ray: Thank you. Collier. You know, you were the first one to offer us the chance to promote the podcast before it had come out before anybody gave a crap. Not that anyone does now, but, uh, uh, yeah, but well, ahead of the NAACP [00:01:40] nomination, you, you, uh, you were the first ones to have us on and, and give us a chance.

[00:01:45] I appreciate you, man. Thank

[00:01:46] Collier Landry: you. Well, I was going to tease that out, but you you've let the cat out of the bag, but that's all good. Um, I was so we, so Ray, so tell us what has one of the wonderful things that has come out of this? How, of this [00:02:00] production?

[00:02:00] Ray: Yeah, so, um, yeah, Martin Luther king day, the backstory to this is actually to me, I like this better.

[00:02:08] So we, um, We couldn't get any traction to, uh, without going into too much detail, we couldn't get any traction from anybody to help us with the, uh, the fees for the different [00:02:20] awards we wanted to submit this to. And the podcast was already six months past, right? Because the last episode dropped in August.

[00:02:26] This came out all last year in 2021, and I felt. I basically just submitted it myself. I stole a little of my partner's money. I basically borrowed a little bit of, uh, from our company [00:02:40] submitted. It, had he found out before we got the nomination, it would have been like, are you nuts? We're never getting an NAACP nomination.

[00:02:46] Why did you just waste 400? But instead on MLK day, we find out some much needed positive news for this, which is that we were one of five chosen for outstanding podcast and the news and information [00:03:00] podcast section. So a total it's so needed that I know everyone says, oh, awards don't matter, whatever, whatever, uh, yeah, five, but I need

[00:03:08] Collier Landry: them.

[00:03:08] I need them. And you and I. Off offline the other day. We love what we do, and we love the opportunity to tell stories and it is [00:03:20] it's amazing. And the difference, you know, for our, for our listeners is, you know, you're this, this podcast that we're doing that movie pass murder is it's a serial podcast. And it is a, you know, it's a conversational raise is different in the sense that it's a seasonal.

[00:03:35] It is, uh, it is very well orchestrated. It has music sound [00:03:40] effects, interviews. It is moving. It's like, listen, To a, a visual documentary. So if you have a listen to it, it's called after the uprising. The death of Danye Dion Jones. It is on iHeart came out last year, and I am talking to my guest Ray Nowosielski.

[00:03:56] And if you guys are liking and, and really into speaking of [00:04:00] support, if you're into what we're talking about today, please like subscribe apple podcasts, YouTube, youtube.com forward slash call your land. There's my pitch. We're going to get back into it and you need to check out his podcast too. My guest is reign over Shefsky and so Ray, um, one of the things that we were discussing about being a documentary filmmaker and then segwaying into doing [00:04:20] podcasting, which it just seems like a natural, natural progression is.

[00:04:24] You, it is sort of just like documentary filmmaking, a thankless, a thank listen media at times, especially when you're trying to get people like, oh, you're making another thing. All you're doing a podcast, but so when you're able as yourself to get recognized for an award. [00:04:40] Like an NAACP image award for the work that you've done and that you worked.

[00:04:44] I mean, you spent two years doing this documentary, as you told us before we're doing this, this podcast just to get that recognition is, is incredible. I mean, how do you feel?

[00:04:56] Ray: It is really good. Uh, obviously there's the selfish [00:05:00] component where it's like, you know, you know how this is, we're building a career here, the higher profile, you can kind of make yourself the more likely you get to work on the next thing you want to work on.

[00:05:08] And all this stuff game in our industry, that people who are in banking or insurance don't really get. So there's the selfish thing, but they do get the,

[00:05:18] Collier Landry: get the steady paycheck. [00:05:20] They get that steady paycheck.

[00:05:22] Ray: I know it was like three weeks of vacation a year. And, uh, but yeah, and then we just travel for work constantly.

[00:05:28] So you just help you take a gig place and get a little downtime. Um, but no, I mean, but honest, I swear though, the real reason we so badly needed this NAACP nomination is because [00:05:40] we hit a certain number of listeners when it ran during the original, during the summer of 2021, that listener. Was within the top 1% of listeners for podcasts at the time, but because there's so many podcasts that doesn't necessarily, that's not enough.

[00:05:57] So you got to reach that 1%, [00:06:00] but then you gotta reach a number within that. 1% I hired had told us what the number was that they were hoping we would hit and we had just hit it. Okay. And so there are all these questions about. Great. We got to tell Danye Jones, his story. We got to bring this to X number of people over one summer, but the local [00:06:20] press had ignored it.

[00:06:20] So the people we most wanted it to reach St. Louis people were not necessarily getting reached the prosecutor that we had brought, like all these actionable, next steps to on the case had dragged ass for a year and a half. We're still in talks to have a second meeting with him and so on. And so forth point is.[00:06:40]

[00:06:40] The NAACP can do something that almost no one else can do in this space, which has put their arms around this project and the Danye Jones story and go, we agree, this is important. You should listen to this. And that's what I, that's what it did for us. And that's what I hope it does for this case, you know?

[00:06:57] Collier Landry: Yeah. Because [00:07:00] there's unfinished business big

[00:07:02] Ray: time and I'd be happy to talk with you real quickly about like what those next steps are, because I think we're about to launch a campaign. We've got to talk more with Melissa. And get, make sure we're on the same page and we're not doing anything without her buy-in and all that, but, you know, and we love this program.

[00:07:18] Collier Landry: I would love to have her on this program. I was [00:07:20] going to try to see if you could, if I could get her with you. Um, yeah, but I wasn't sure I was, I know you were, you were stressed out about some stuff. So I was like, I don't want to put this extra stuff on his plate, but I love to have her on with

[00:07:30] Ray: I'll I'll, uh, I'll message her immediate, you know, immediately and let her know to consider that.

[00:07:34] I think she listened to. She tends to listen to our podcast appearances. I mean, she follows obviously [00:07:40] her, you know, the media around her son's story very closely. So I think she's amazing. Enjoyed the last time. Yeah. That's a very kind invite there's stuff, even just as simple

[00:07:49] Collier Landry: as like

[00:07:53] Ray: I might be that's hilarious. Cause I'm actually looking at my little tech stack right now, as we're talking, I'm thinking, do I send it to her right now? [00:08:00] And she ha she said, I will,

[00:08:03] Collier Landry: I love up one. Yeah. It's one of those very powerful things where you're able to really, really connect and now having the, the weight, it's just like, so I'll give you an example, like you have the weight of the NAACP image nomination, right.

[00:08:16] Which will now bring attention to this. I just got, got the [00:08:20] podcast in the New York post, which when this comes out, this Friday will be a week ago. And then, and then earlier this week, it came out on in the, in the paper. Physical New York post and, uh, congrats to which, which was great. Thank you so much, which was really crazy, but here's the craziest thing [00:08:40] right before, you know, I was a little late to our, to our zoom today for the podcast, because I was on the line with a client and this number that I didn't recognize from New Jersey.

[00:08:50] Hit me up. And I was like, let me just take this. Cause I have this sneaking suspicion, whereas I normally get these random telemarketer calls as everyone does, but I [00:09:00] thought, okay, maybe this is a family member. And lo and behold, it was, and they are on my mother's side of the family. They had been trying to contact me and they are doing a genealogy.

[00:09:14] Of the entire family and they've wanted to speak to me. And so this guy is, [00:09:20] he's a couple of years younger than my mother. He had met my mother probably about 10 times over the years. Um, obviously before she was killed and them growing up. Um, and he just was just letting me all his stuff, but he, he, he.

[00:09:35] Found me because of the knee or post article that came out. [00:09:40] So, you know, today is Tuesday, February 8th. When you guys are watching this, there'll be Friday, February 11th. I believe I got my calendar right in my head, the physical paper, which wasn't supposed to come out. I thought we, we, we weren't going to do it.

[00:09:51] It was just going to be. And online the print version is how he found out about this because his, his older [00:10:00] cousin or sisters, I think she was like in her eighties, she reasoned New York post every day. So she saw it and called him and it's just, it's incredible. And, and then he watched the, the, our latest episode of the podcast before this, which is the Tik TOK, which came out this past Friday.

[00:10:16] Uh, where I had posted something on Tech-Talk like a week [00:10:20] before. And my father's side of the family reached out to me, something I didn't even know to give me all this information. It was crazy. It's crazy. So it's, it's amazing. When you see the work, then materialize the goal that you have, which for me, is trying to get my it's trying to get.

[00:10:35] Solve this mystery of like, who is my family? Cause as you know, I don't know anything about my family [00:10:40] because they don't talk to me and they abandoned me when everything happened. And then you have the flip side of the, with you, you're trying to cause call attention to this case. Right. And now with the backing of the NAACP.

[00:10:55] You, but you are opening up and getting more eyeballs on not only your podcasts and [00:11:00] you as a creator and a producer and a documentarian, but more importantly in the greater good, which is for you too, to be able to shed light on this case and, and, and Melissa, and the pain that she's gone through. And. And, and to, to make a change in society as I want to do, I want to help others that [00:11:20] have been in my similar circumstance to know that they're not alone as the paper, as the New York post says.

[00:11:25] And I want to give that narrative voice to others in similar situations. You're the same way. And that we're all doing this for the greater good and hope that we keep the lights on at the same time. But, but it's wonderful when it's starts to happen. Well, [00:11:40]

[00:11:40] Ray: sometimes it gets confused too, because in order to.

[00:11:42] And in order to impact the greater good in this case, I got to get a lot of people listening to this podcast and we got to get a lot of publicity and promotion. Essentially what you want is you want a successful podcast, so you can keep delving into it. Right. But it's like, I can understand people kind of being [00:12:00] like, well, you just want a successful podcast.

[00:12:01] It's like, I do. I want that. So I can push the things, you know, the agendas essentially that I have that are important to me. Um, I can't do the precise.

[00:12:10] Collier Landry: Yeah, exactly. It has to be commercial. It has to be successful. You have to get advertisers, you have to get people on it. You have to get eyeballs on it.

[00:12:18] But at the same time, [00:12:20] you know, it's, you're doing that because that feeds the machine of actually making the social impact that you want to have.

[00:12:28] Ray: And so speaking to that funny story, man, weird coincidence. We had this guy, Mitch Swan, is this great publicist out in your neck of the woods. I only hear people talk shit about publicists.

[00:12:37] Nobody ever says a good thing about a publicist that I know. [00:12:40] And, uh, what are the exceptions, Barbara? Kopple I'll just say so she doesn't get mad at me, but, uh,

[00:12:47] Collier Landry: listen to this.

[00:12:49] Ray: But, uh, my friend recommended who was involved with a very similar, like a it's another kind of black lives matter related documentary called finding Kendrick Johnson.

[00:12:58] And he had nothing but good things to say [00:13:00] about how this guy Mitch understood how to promote and publicize that movie. So I begged Mitch make yourself available in January, February timeframe to promote our podcast. And Mitch says, I like what you're doing. I can set aside the time, but I can't promote a six month old podcast.

[00:13:17] It's like, I need something new to have happened with [00:13:20] this. And I was like, have some faith, man, hold the time aside, something new will have happen. What happens second week of January, we get a call. We've been nominated for the NAACP image award. I'm like, I'm like, Mitch, you got something to promote now, buddy, let's get going, which he's doing now.

[00:13:35] So

[00:13:35] Collier Landry: that's awesome.

[00:13:36] Ray: Fantastic stuff. But dude, I want to, I want to, let's not [00:13:40] bury. I feel like that you've buried that a little bit, like New York post, how much work did it take for you to just get you and your show and your story into the New York post that's fricking amazing. So hard.

[00:13:50] Collier Landry: It was a lot of work.

[00:13:51] I had no publicist. I was my publicist and I did it because I wanted to have a producer come onto the show. I mean, the real, the truth is, is that I have this [00:14:00] great producer and she's like, and rightfully so would like to get paid for her efforts. And I'm like, look, I think. Give you any money? I don't have any money, but what I do yet, but what I do have is cause I need help building the show to a successful level.

[00:14:17] Right. I wanted to bring her in, but I was like, I [00:14:20] want to show you that I will do whatever it takes to make this a success. And I got that. And, you know, I had been contacted by this wonderful writer named Rebecca Reisner, who was writing a book on forensic files. She does the forensic files now blog. And, you know, as you know, when we were [00:14:40] pitching a murder, Mansfield bag was called aftermath.

[00:14:42] We, you know, use the forensic files episode success. Cause it was like a top 10 out of 450 episodes in 11 seasons or whatever it was. That's one of the top episodes in that series. And there were all, a lot of eyeballs on it. People still talk [00:15:00] about it. And then when they got, you know, bought up by it, had this massive resurgence during the pandemic.

[00:15:05] So she's writing this book, which has comes out on Prometheus's books at the end of this year or third or fourth. Yeah, third quarter this year, 2022. But she, um, you know, I noticed that she had a New York post address when she emailed me and I was like, oh, I was like, could you guys do an [00:15:20] episode on, uh, do a, a piece on it?

[00:15:22] And they said, Oh, um, but she's like, well, I'll pitch it to my editors. Sure. You know, you were a good sport with me. I'll and then they were like, oh, we don't know. You know, we want to do more about the murder and this, that, and the other. And then they, then they sort of reversed course the end of last week and said, we're gonna make this all about the podcast, which is [00:15:40] amazing because it's like, what is he doing now?

[00:15:41] Okay. Yes. He made the document. This is what he's doing right now. Awesome. And it was really amazing to have them, uh, just embrace me like that.

[00:15:52] Ray: Yeah. And then the other thing that's happening now is like I get, I get this nomination. It doesn't happen to me a lot. I would love to go to this award ceremony, meet all [00:16:00] the other movers and shakers out there.

[00:16:01] And, uh, they made it so only the presenters are on the actual stage, no audience for COVID and the people who are nominated can all go to some location where we were all going to just watch a stream on a big. Which is like, okay, I just stuck it to me. And everybody might even be [00:16:20] more intimate than the awards show, but it's like, you're making the, this doesn't make sense in like COVID is some of our COVID rules are stupid.

[00:16:28] Face is kind of what you're doing. Yeah. You

[00:16:29] Collier Landry: can't be in the theater theater gathered, but you could be in another space. Exactly.

[00:16:35] Ray: I don't know, man. I mean, but it's just the nominees, I guess they figured they didn't want to see the [00:16:40] nominees and no audience. Like they thought it would just be like crickets.

[00:16:43] I don't know. I'm not sure what the thinking was there, but I'm trying to decide if it's worth flying out to LA to rub elbows with the other nominees at essentially a live screening. Anyway, I'm just trying to decide if I want to fly [00:17:00] in. Knowing that I may have lost by them. Hopefully not. And then sit at a live screening, six foot from everyone else.

[00:17:09] You know what I mean is like, is that worth it? I don't know. We'll figure it out. Barbara. Kopple says it's a once in a lifetime kind of thing. You got to take the winds in life and you should definitely fly up. And she says to me, but, uh, we'll see. [00:17:20]

[00:17:20] Collier Landry: I mean, that's what they told me about going to Amsterdam with the film.

[00:17:23] Cause I was like, oh, I'm going to have to save for a couple of weeks. If I fly over there, then they're like do that. And that was like the best.

[00:17:31] Ray: Yeah, why are you going to regret going? I mean, life is too short. We work too hard on these projects. If you happened to get some small amount of like celebration, [00:17:40] celebrate dance to the faculty, '

[00:17:42] Collier Landry: cause you ain't doing it for the money.

[00:17:43] That's for sure. You're just, it's it's, it's the ancillary and, and the, the social currency and the, the. Yeah. The S just, yeah, the, the, the S the benefits of that are extraordinary. I think I [00:18:00] feel myself and I think you would agree. Um, all right, man. Well, this is exciting. I'm so excited for you. I hope I get to actually see you in person, which means that you'll probably have one, which will be fantastic.

[00:18:11] Um, but, uh, so. Again, here we are. It is black history month and we are, uh, well, [00:18:20] well now we're about a week into it. And, um, but it wasn't even a week into it where we have, uh, another scenario in our wonderful state of Missouri, where we have a, another no-knock warrant being approved by a judge and a officer's coming in to serve this no-knock [00:18:40] warrant and they kill.

[00:18:43] Uh, mere lock who, and again, As the, this is one of the issues that I wanted to discuss with you, which I think is, is really at the heart of it's. One of the, one of the hearts of this problem is again, they don't really use the details. He had a [00:19:00] gun, the officers came in, they fired on him. So that may sort of left leave you to assume.

[00:19:04] Okay, well, he was probably a person with a criminal record. He had an illegal firearm. If he was a felon, he's not supposed to have firearms. In fact, when I was talking about this last night with someone, that was what they had. Assume because of what the media, [00:19:20] because of the lack of information, but as they have cleared up today because of the relentlessness of the protestors and of the people that have come forward and said, here we are, again, he was, he was licensed to calve the firearm and a concealed carry permit.

[00:19:38] He did not have a [00:19:40] criminal record. He had the firearm because he was a delivery driver. As we all know, crime has been elevating around the country and use it for personal protection. When they came in for the no-knock warrants, they, they, they kicked his, I guess he was sleeping on the couch or something.

[00:19:59] And they [00:20:00] had kicked the couch, which will come up for me was a bedroom. But they, something he had woken up and had a fi grabbed the firearm because he slept with it because it's a dangerous place and they shot him. Not, and there you go. If they had not police spoke both the outcome, might've been different.

[00:20:19] And here we [00:20:20] are, again, another, another human being it has, has been killed, uh, tragic. And it's not to say that law enforcement enforcement didn't think they were doing their job, but they weren't protecting themselves because they I'm sure the officers, obviously, if somebody has a gun, I, you, it's a [00:20:40] very sticky situation, but again, they just arrested the actual real suspect today.

[00:20:46] And the murder that they were serving in this poor guy, 20, I believe he was 24 years old and mere lock is now. And he was at. And as the, you know, as these protestors are saying, [00:21:00] as I'm watching them on Facebook and everything, they're saying, you told us to do this and we did it get illegal firearm. Don't be a troublemaker don't and this is a guy, he had a job, he had this, he followed all the rules and it's just.[00:21:20]

[00:21:21] Ray: Actually I saw that video, a friend of mine sent it to me within, within hours. He was like, he was like, this hasn't been released yet. If this gets out, like things are going to get crazy here in Minneapolis, the list kind of stuff. And, um, I don't know how anyone would argue like no knock warrants is a good idea.

[00:21:37] You know, a lot of this stuff, I feel like, look, and by the way, let me [00:21:40] just preface this. I can speak with expertise on one case Danye Deon Jones, right. I spent two and a half years with that. I am not an expert. Although I'm an advocate, but I'm not an expert in the black lives matter arena. You know, I cannot speak, I have no reason to be speaking on the subject other than I care, I follow [00:22:00] it.

[00:22:00] And I've been to some degree, a part of that movement. Um, but that said, I just don't understand. I don't understand. The cops are going to operate within. They're going to operate within the boundaries that are set by them by other reasonable people. You know, people don't set their own boundaries for their own professions.

[00:22:18] I think about this a lot. Like [00:22:20] if there was not a limit of, let's say a 12 hour day before you go into overtime on a production.

[00:22:26] Collier Landry: Sure.

[00:22:27] Ray: Right then I, you know, if you were deepening with me, I'd just be pushing you and pushing you until you broke. And it would be standard. I'd have no choice because to be competitive with the other productions I would have to do, but there are rules.

[00:22:39] And because I [00:22:40] know there are rules, I keep it within, you know what I mean? Like the. And, and, and that's what I think needs to change here. I mean, these cops, they're doing their job. They go in, no knocks, warrants are allowed and they ended up in this situation. It's not good for anybody.

[00:22:53] Collier Landry: It's not good for anybody.

[00:22:55] It's not good for anybody because it, and that's, that's the thing that I wanna, I wanna [00:23:00] harp on or what I really, it's not just about Amir it's or the victim. It's also about the police now being put into this position. Were there, like what the fuck lake? We just murdered [00:23:20] somebody. Right. I don't think that it's their intent to go in.

[00:23:23] And I know a lot of people want to raise flags in there. Of course are bad. Cops are bad people. There are criminals. There are bad cops. It's that is a fact of life. There are good and bad people, but they don't go in with the attentive shooting and innocent. Especially Elaw gobs really liked the fact that he, most, I would say most [00:23:40] officers of the law would go, this is a good, if they saw him, they knew that he had a firearm and he had it registered and he had gone for his concealed carry and he was being a responsible citizen, which is what we all want everyone to do that has a firearm is be a responsible citizen, know how to use it and not.

[00:23:57] He would've been, he would've been lauded [00:24:00] by, by the law enforcement. Now we have a situation where officers are caught, people are going to be fired. And again, we go back to the same thing where the, the, they control the narrative with the media of. Uh, was trickle out the information or it's like, oh, he had a gun, not, he had a [00:24:20] legal gun and not that he was not a convicted felon because they leave it by leaving out the details.

[00:24:25] They allow you to fill them in. And nowadays, because things spread like wildfire on social media, you can get outraged instantaneously by things and they know how to control the narrative with this. It's like you have. Put these things out to be like, you want to see, [00:24:40] you know, you want to honor the dead.

[00:24:41] First of all, you don't want to make this guy out to be somebody who's not because he wasn't, you know, but also you want to avoid this, but again, these, these no-knock warrants are not good for anybody and it's it's

[00:24:55] Ray: but here's the, here's the problem though, right? The, the chink in the armor, what I just said, cause what I said is very [00:25:00] neutral.

[00:25:00] Here's where I'll get controversial. Why doesn't these kinds of things change. Right. What, why, why do no-knock warrants stay in place when activists push really hard about them? Why didn't the justice and policing act pass after George Floyd? When there was so much pressure there, right? The police unions, so they can't hide behind.

[00:25:19] [00:25:20] Well, there's just a few captains that are like keeping this where you know, where, where it is and the workforce feels very differently about this because the workforce voices, their opinion through their unions, uh, there is a fundamental issue here. Um, I know just to give you a little more on that controversial matter, right?

[00:25:36] Uh, one of our episodes, I think it's episode four or five, as [00:25:40] we're investigating St. Louis county, this, uh, this great organization called the plain view project decides, you know what? We don't, if we want to examine this issue of how racist our art, most police forces let's look at seven of, uh, uh, you know, seven major police forces in the country.

[00:25:57] And we'll just look at their social. [00:26:00] How many questionable things do we find that give us insights into that. And they, and they found a lot, uh, in St. Louis in particular that, I mean, they didn't find any more than anywhere else in the country, but they found a number of people who were in high levels of the police who were posting, you know, things like the N word and code.

[00:26:15] And, and, and it's just some really jaw dropping stuff. A very bold and audacious, [00:26:20] and I bring it up because when the plane view project came out with their report about this, rather than may a culpa and say it's a few bad apples, the responses the St. Louis county police was to, to, um, was to put up a social media that the Punisher Logan.

[00:26:38] The Punisher is an outlaw. [00:26:40] This has become, you should Google this Punisher logo because it's been very popular among a lot of police. And what it says to me very clearly is this is I am the law, you know, kind of thing. It's, it's, it's very judged, dread. It's very, uh, I'm the courts, I'm the whatever, and it's a vigilante symbol.

[00:26:57] And I just think something has gone wrong with the [00:27:00] politicization of the country. People are losing their freaking minds on. And people are like doubling down on their badge ideas, you know? So if you're on one side, you're going to double down and you're terrible, left the idea. And if you're on the other side, you're going to double down on your terrible conservative idea.

[00:27:15] But I mean, I don't want my, I don't want any cop that's serving any [00:27:20] neighborhood anywhere near anyone that I love with a Punisher symbol, you know, up in protest to having some of the other officers get exposed on their, you know, an ill-advised social media. It lets you into the mindset that some. I think is in control of a lot of police forces and the police unions.

[00:27:37] And is the reason why we don't see reform [00:27:40] that's one man's opinion.

[00:27:43] Collier Landry: Yeah. That's a hot button topic, for sure.

[00:27:49] Ray: So somebody from the black police union of St. Louis, I said to myself, you know, I I'm really interested in doing something on police unions because I think it's the number one reason we don't see reform.

[00:27:58] And she said to me, and she meant it. [00:28:00] She kind of laughed. You're going to get a hit taken out on you. And, uh, I mean, I'm not, I don't know if she meant it quite literally, but she might have, well,

[00:28:09] Collier Landry: you never go. And it's just, um, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll lighten the mood here, but I'll, I'll continue the same sort of narrative.

[00:28:16] It was last week, a NFL head [00:28:20] coach and Miami. Uh, filed lawsuit against the NFL and the owners, right. Um, alleging racist practices by the NFL. And one of the things that is very commonly known and in the sports industry, especially in football, is that, uh, they're like black coaches represent like [00:28:40] 3% of the coaches that are there.

[00:28:42] Um, well, one of the things that really got this talking point, which I found very interesting is that you go, okay, well, these players, these coaches, they're not. But who has not put in there, put their weight, who represents the majority of play of [00:29:00] people, of color in the national football league, the NFL players association, the union didn't come and say, you know what?

[00:29:09] You guys need to revamp your hiring practices. We are made up of, let's say 80% of, of people of color in this industry and [00:29:20] this sport. And we want to see you that accounts. We want to see you get from 3% at 10. You know, we want to see you give more opportunities. Now we want the best person to get a job, but they don't do that.

[00:29:31] They don't take those risks. And that is what is infuriated. A lot of people in agree or disagree with Brian Flores and some of these other [00:29:40] people who have come forward. It is interesting that these there's, you know, unions are very social constructs and designed to protect the common person. Right. And they don't, they at the end of the day, [00:30:00] And what's super interesting because the

[00:30:02] Ray: other, the other projects I've been well, perhaps, I mean, is there things, there are definitely pluses and minuses, but the, I was another project I spent.

[00:30:11] Oh, so this has been, Hey Melissa. Thanks for, she said she's got a few minutes. Hi

[00:30:15] Collier Landry: Melissa. Thank you. Thank you for the thank you for [00:30:20] coming in and shutting Collier up.

[00:30:23] Ray: Well, let's see, you may remember that just before the podcast started to drop in June Collier was the first one to have anyone on to talk about the podcast.

[00:30:33] When he heard about the NAACP nod, he

[00:30:36] Collier Landry: happy to have us back on. Well, I'd like to welcome to the program. This is [00:30:40] Melissa McInnes, who is the mother of, uh, Danye who we was speaking about, who was a very large part of Ray's podcasts after the uprising. And so, Melissa, thank you so, so much for joining us. How, um, obviously.

[00:30:58] Yeah, it's a real honor. It's been a [00:31:00] few months since the last episode in August. Um, how are you feeling about everything?

[00:31:09] Melissa: Um, it gets frustrating. I'm just waiting for some, it's going to get kicked off. [00:31:20] So, um, I've just been staying busy. I've started working and just trying to stay busy and keep my mind, you know, occupied and, um, and praying at the same time, you know, um, just realizing it's, it's just [00:31:40] now really.

[00:31:41] She hit me like a few months ago, you know, that, um, you know, my son is gone. He's no longer coming back and everything. So I've, I've went to this, this little stage of, I wouldn't say depression, it's just a little [00:32:00] sadness, you know? So I decided to work, um, you know, until maybe. Something I'm praying. If something comes up where somebody is held accountable for something.[00:32:20]

[00:32:20] Collier Landry: Yeah. I mean, look, I don't think there's a person listening to this program or that has listened to after the uprising that that can not empathize with, with a grieving mother looking for justice for her son. And I really commend you on your strength and, and. It just, I really admire you for, for [00:32:40] that. And for just continuing to keep the faith that that justice will be served and that you will be able to.

[00:32:50] To move on and this problem is called moving past murder and it's, it's, you know, your strength is really to be something, to be celebrated and admired. And so [00:33:00] thank you for that. Um,

[00:33:03] Melissa: I think grey and Duffy, you know, they. They came at a, at a time where I was at my, I wouldn't say my lowest, but I was at a point where I was just like, ready to scream.

[00:33:16] And I was like, I wanted someone to hear my voice and [00:33:20] then they came and kicked the door down, you know? So I appreciate that as well.

[00:33:25] Collier Landry: Yeah. And so I just want to live, I know your time is limited and again, thank you for joining us. So one of the things that I was just discussing is, you know, we are in black history month and.

[00:33:37] Now, you know, we have this [00:33:40] situation with Amir lock and we were discussing the narrative, you know, with these no-knock warrants and just this, another senseless killing and, and you know, one of the things that really struck a chord with me is, you know, this is somebody who did it, right? Somebody who had illegal firearm, [00:34:00] legal habit.

[00:34:01] No, no, no criminal record. As a job, you know, it has it for his own personal protection. This no-knock warrant comes in and now a young man, I believe he was 24 years old is his dad. And, uh, and we have a family and yet another mother grieving and angry and outrage. And how can this happen? And [00:34:20] it's just, it's heartbreaking.

[00:34:21] It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. If you can say anything to, to, to this, to this mother and to to the people who are trying to make sense of this, what would you say?

[00:34:35] Melissa: Um, I haven't heard of anything. I haven't heard the story at [00:34:40] all yet, but just listening, just hearing what you just said. I, um, I sympathize with them and I, uh, I'll pray, you know, that they have strength to fight when no one else is, um, available to [00:35:00] fight with them.

[00:35:01] But I would tell her to, um, don't give up no matter if it's just her standing alone. Um, she's her son's. And we'll always be, and her strength is what he's dependent on. You know,[00:35:20]

[00:35:21] Collier Landry: that's really, yeah. Sorry. I get emotional. Just hearing that from you. Um, uh, just as another grieving mother, you know, it's um, wow.

[00:35:35] Melissa: That's. I'm just hearing about it. So, you know, [00:35:40] every time I hear about, you know, another one, um, it, you know, it hits home again. It's like another mother is crying and another mother's losing sleep.

[00:35:52] Another mother's missing her child, another life loss, you know? So, [00:36:00] um, yeah, just, I know like the beginning. Stage, it's just like so many different emotions. And then, um, the, the, the stage where you realize that [00:36:20] your child is no longer. Coming home or going to give you a call or anything. That part, it, it hits so horribly, you know, and this is, it has no expiration date on when to stop missing, [00:36:40] you know, w we're supposed to stop just missing our children that never happened.

[00:36:44] So, um, I would have my. Phone on or my messenger available. If any mother would just need to just vent, just cry, you know, we can cry together [00:37:00] sometimes, you know? Um, yeah, it's sad.

[00:37:07] Collier Landry: It's yeah, it's, it's heartbreaking it, you know, You know, you said you're not familiar with the case. You're just becoming familiar with it as I'm telling you.

[00:37:19] But [00:37:20] again, it's the real unfortunate thing about this. This is just, it's a, it's a, it's a carbon copy. It's the same story. The situation is different, but it's still the same. And that's the thing is, is when do we get to a point when that. [00:37:40] Not the case. Yeah. And

[00:37:45] Ray: I kind of told you by textbook Cali, they are, um, if I may call your.

[00:37:51] Mother was murdered by his prominent father in Ohio when he was 12. Um, and when I met him, he'd been on a long journey [00:38:00] to find his voice, to figure out what's unique about the trauma that's particularly associated with acts of violence with crimes, you know, in a way that may be. Other kinds of trauma and you might be able to face them and work on them, but you've gotten of like, void doing that when it's something so [00:38:20] painful or, or ugly as like violence.

[00:38:23] Um,

[00:38:25] Melissa: yeah. That's um, to lose anyone to violence is, um, it, it feels almost inhumane. You know, it's nothing normal [00:38:40] about. You know, so, um, it comes with anger. Um, it comes with sadness, it comes with disbelief, you know? Um, and, and then it hits after all of that, then it finally hit, you know? So, [00:39:00] um, yeah, I, I do feel like it, if I can just snap my finger, it would not exist, you know, but sadly it does.

[00:39:11] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:13] Collier Landry: Yeah. So, Melissa, um, obviously with this [00:39:20] NAACP image award nomination, what are, what are you hoping that, that comes out of this? Because one of the things Ray and I were discussing is, is with having such a prestigious nominee, even just a nomination, it brings more eyes to your situation, your family situation, Danye situation.[00:39:40]

[00:39:40] Um, what are you hoping that comes out of this for you in this next phase

[00:39:49] Melissa: recognition for, um, a case of, uh, another [00:40:00] sign gone and lack of investigation. So accountability, um, Yeah. I, I, I feel like, um, like I was telling Ray, it feels, it just feels like we say black lives do [00:40:20] matter, but it's taking so long just for other people to realize it, you know, the people that, that should realize it, the investigators and detectives and the people that really are put in place, um, To recognize [00:40:40] us.

[00:40:40] Um, so yeah, I, I would like to see some accountability for the lack of investigation.

[00:40:47] Collier Landry: You know, one of the things that, and this is I can relate to you in, in my own way because when my mother went missing, I heard the sounds the [00:41:00] night before it was on new year's Eve, 1989. The next morning I woke up my father.

[00:41:05] I said, where is my mother? My father says, mommy went on a little vacation. And then he proceeds to tell me how I, we, we were not going to call the cops, the FBI, but Bubba, I, of course, as soon as my father left the house called my mother's best friends and said, you know, [00:41:20] um, do you call the police? She's gone.

[00:41:22] This is what. I believe she's dead. And the police came to my house and because my father was a doctor and they, they said they treated it as a missing persons case. It was literally filed as, okay. They got into a fight. [00:41:40] She left the house. She , she didn't want anything to do with him. He was a womanizer.

[00:41:44] They were getting a divorce. Baba were putting out a missing persons case. It wasn't until one to 10. Got a hold of this and said, this is interesting a doctor, because it was new, year's new year's. And the, you know, obviously they weren't that active. And [00:42:00] he came to the house and I pulled him aside. I said, my mother did not just leave me.

[00:42:04] My mother's dead and why. And it wasn't until this one investigator. And he had his, even his job threatened where they, where they said, you know, you're taking a, his captain said you're taking on a doctor, but you don't do that. And he's like, but this kid, this kid. [00:42:20] No something. And I believe this kid, I found a picture of a house and a picture of his girlfriend sitting in front of his fireplace rock wrapped in plastic and told Dr.

[00:42:28] Phil this, when I was on his show. That's what I told investigators. And that's when they found this house in another state where my mother's body was buried underneath the basement for this was 25 days later. And [00:42:40] it's, it's almost like, you know, even though our situations are different, everything that I've done in my life, it gives me to this point right here, as I did for my mother.

[00:42:48] As you do everything you do for your son, I do the exact, like the reason I've done. Reason I moved to Los Angeles, became a filmmakers to honor my mother and to not let her die in vain. And you're on that [00:43:00] same thing. And you have Ray, somebody as wonderful as Ray to help elevate that. And hopefully this award elevates these things.

[00:43:06] So. I understand the fire in the belly. More than anyone, even though our situations are different because it's, you don't want them to die in vain and you want their story to be heard and you want there to be that [00:43:20] accountability and, and you need to, this, this pocket's called moving past murder and you need any, but at the end of the day, you ultimately want to, to have that moment where you can finally take a breath and say, okay, He's not coming back, but I'm going to be able to, to handle [00:43:40] this and honor him.

[00:43:42] And that's, I think the thing that I always tell viewers, and I think that I hear from you is that you're looking for that point and I just, I hope, and I pray that you get that.

[00:43:55] Melissa: Yeah. I feel 'em all the [00:44:00] time. I feel them mostly fill them in my, my heart and in my stomach, you know? Um, and when I hear his name, I hear his voice, you know, and then, uh, I see his body, you [00:44:20] know, and, um, it angers me, you know, Every time.

[00:44:27] It angers me. Um, that was my baby. That was my child. No matter how much of an adult he was, he was my child. He was my baby. You [00:44:40] know, so, um, that's what I just, I look forward to, um, any event that, you know, we, this award is granted and you know, it's one. Nothing special, just an acknowledgement that [00:45:00] there's a sign that needs some has mom needs some answers, you know?

[00:45:10] Um, and that's it. I don't ask for much, it's being a mom, you know?

[00:45:19] Collier Landry: [00:45:20] Yeah. There's a really powerful word.

[00:45:26] Melissa: Thank you for having me.

[00:45:30] Collier Landry: Um, yeah. Thank you so much. I mean, I just, you know, I, you know, and I know you have to go and it's, you have to deal with life from [00:45:40] the other part of life that we all have to deal with. Right. Um, yeah. I just, I just pray, you know, pray for you and your family and, and I will continue to do so.

[00:45:49] And, and that you guys get, which. And

[00:45:53] Melissa: I'm praying for you also, I'm praying for you also, because yeah, it's rough. I [00:46:00] know

[00:46:00] Collier Landry: it is. Yeah. But we all get where we're going to get through it. You're going to get through it and you're, you know, and, and being able to do something. Especially with this guy here is, is the first step in, in a, in a, in a, in a journey that's, that's, you know, greater, obviously, you know, as an activist, [00:46:20] it's greater than yourself and it's greater than Tanya and is greater than one case.

[00:46:24] It's, uh, it's a, it's a, it's an, it's a revolution and it's, and it's, and it's, uh, it's a change, right? You know, for me, the impact that I have when, when people say, okay, I've seen your situation. And [00:46:40] I thought I couldn't make it through that. I found you. And I saw the podcast. I saw the film and I can't even imagine that I go my life.

[00:46:47] If I can get, if you can get through your, your shit, I can too. And I, and I feel the same thing for you. If this mother can do this and she can get through this and she can, can find a way [00:47:00] to move on. That's what it's all about because that's the strength that you show and that's truly what honors yourself, but most importantly, your son and his legacy, and it's a beautiful thing.

[00:47:13] Melissa: Yeah. So true. Thank you guys. I have, [00:47:20]

[00:47:21] Collier Landry: I know, I don't want to hold you up. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I know. It's you got to shift gears again. Thank you so much for joining the program. It was such an honor to speak to you and I, and I hope to do so again and find out the next stage of everything.

[00:47:36] Thank you. All right. Thank you so much, Melissa. [00:47:40] Okay. Keep your head

[00:47:41] Melissa: up. You

[00:47:42] too.

[00:47:48] Oh man.

[00:47:54] Ray: So the documentarian in me wants to, uh, let you leave your audience in this moment without [00:48:00] ruining it. Uh, but I, I, I hope this doesn't ruin it, but I'd like to take that emotion and push in a direction, which is what you did for Melissa just now was very nice connecting with. Letting her know that you've experienced, you know, similar and that she's going to be okay.

[00:48:16] And a lot of people react that way, but what would really [00:48:20] help Melissa and her family? They're not vague next steps. They're very concrete. Next steps that we're asking prosecutor, Wesley bell to do for St. Louis county or Biden's department of justice, civil rights division to do. And we're asking the media and the people listening to this [00:48:40] to help push.

[00:48:41] Entities to do the right thing. And here they are real, real fast swap dornase uncle and stepfather for DNA. So we can just confirm or eliminate them as the sources of the DNA on the bedsheet. It's so fricking. And if they're [00:49:00] eliminated, then you go, oh, well then who the hell else would have touched that sheet?

[00:49:03] And how about you? You searched the ethnic origins, just like an ancestry kit for of those DNA swabs that were previously done to see if the origins are of African descent or European descent. If they're of European descent, we might have a murder on our [00:49:20] hands. We're asking the digital forensics work to determine who was accessing Danye his accounts remotely in the last day as he was alive and where, and maybe through that, through some sort of digital forensics confine, the missing iPad that we think was, or maybe [00:49:40] still is in the possession of whoever may have done this to him.

[00:49:43] If something was done. Subpoena apple, Wesley bell. So we can get into Dinah his iPhone and see if it was carrying. If he was carrying it around in the seven hours of missing time, on his last night a lot. Can we see who he met with? Might that be a clue to how he ended [00:50:00] up dead at four 30 in the morning and his backyard?

[00:50:02] I think so. Go talk to Marcel Fox. We couldn't use his last name at the time of the podcast, but you can, because this man sense, we reported on him as a person of interest in his death. He had taken shots at both. Dine-in his best friend and brother [00:50:20] only weeks before Donnie's death. We told that information to Wesley bell in August of 2018.

[00:50:26] Nothing was done about it. And in January of 2021, Marcel foster shot a man named Larico Martin over a disagreement about a girl outside of club. And as of last week was convicted of. I don't know if he's the [00:50:40] killer. I don't know if there is a killer, but a conversation is warranted. And lastly, we've identified enough about county PD, St.

[00:50:47] Louis county PD and the lead detective, Tim Anderer and his wife, Amy, Andrew, who trains new cadets. We I'm going to spare your audience, the list, but it's astonishing. And [00:51:00] anyone who looks at that. Should want to see some level of a look into accountability regarding if it's appropriate for that detective to continue to serve the black community in sickos county.

[00:51:12] Thanks for hearing me out on that. That's going to be the list. I think we're going to try to create into a meme and I'm going to work with Melissa to see if we can't get this shared out [00:51:20] into the world, because these are real concrete things that could help solve this for her and her family and help the community out there.

[00:51:26] And it pisses me off. The media and the authorities will not do anything about it when we've gathered it ourselves and handed it to them on a silver plaque. Yep.

[00:51:38] Melissa: Yep. [00:51:40]

[00:51:40] Ray: I hope I didn't step on the emotional.

[00:51:43] Collier Landry: Yeah, because you were emotional and, and your delivery emotion was spot on man. And. You know, but on that note, my guest today is Ray Nowosielski raise the co-creator of after the uprising, the murder of Danye Deon Jones.[00:52:00]

[00:52:00] Ray. Thank you so much for coming back to the program. I cannot wait to see you in Los Angeles because that means you're going to have some hardware to show me. And, um, again, thank you to Melissa McInnis, Danyé's mother, who was kind enough to join us today. Uh, it just an impromptu thing. And I really hope out of [00:52:20] anything, uh, that our audience is gleaned of this episode that you listened to Melissa's words as a, as a heartbroken mother, just trying to move past.

[00:52:31] I'll Collier Landry. This is Moving Past Murder. Thanks. Y'all[00:52:40]

[00:52:44] This podcast is made possible by support from listeners, just like you. Please subscribe via apple podcasts, Spotify, audible. Find us on YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/collierlandry.[00:53:00]

[00:53:05] the film, A Murder in Mansfield is available on investigation. Discovery plus an Amazon prime video.

[00:53:19] this [00:53:20] podcast is a production of don't touch my radio in association with RSA entertainment, please visit http://www.mpmpodcast.com to show your support today.[00:53:40]