Sociopaths Side By Side: Chris Watts VS My Father, Dr. John Boyle

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When I look at this Chris Watts case, this is the thing that really hits me.

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If I jump up at 11 years old and asthmatic kid jumps up,

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my father was six foot three.

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220 pounds probably at that time.

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You know, if I go into the bedroom, when I hear the thoughts and I see what had just

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happened, you've already dug one hole.

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It's not that hard to make it a little bit bigger to fit two or three bottles.

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Yeah.

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I, Hey, guys just wanted to give you a heads up on today's episode.

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I'm going to talk about something that might trigger some of you because it

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involves violence towards children.

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Um, I found what I'm about ready to talk about really disturbing,

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which is why I'm talking about it.

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Um, And, uh, you know, I just want to give you guys a heads up.

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So if you're not comfortable with the episode and you want to sit this

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one out, if this is a subject matter, that is tough for you to swallow.

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Totally cool.

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No worries.

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Um, and if you stick with us, I really hope you enjoy the episode.

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That's the morning continued today and the most notorious

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criminal trial in Richland county.

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Dr.

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John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Marine and burying her body in

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the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania, the 12 year old son.

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And I heard I heard, but it's about this loud.

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We, as a jury, find the defendant guilty.

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When I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to

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prison for murdering my mother.

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This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation from and it is my hope

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that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trial.

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I'm Collier Landry and this is Moving Past Murder.

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Hey movers.

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What's going on.

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Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder.

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I'm your host call your Landry and it is so good to see all of you here.

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All of you hear all your thoughts as you guys connect with me on

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social media as we interact.

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Well, my IAG lives, all those fun things.

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Um, thank you all for, to.

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Thank you for your support.

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Thank you for liking and subscribing.

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If you're on YouTube, it's right here or there, whatever you follow me on Instagram

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@collierlandry Twitter, all that.

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And, uh, it's great.

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This is, uh, we're all building this together and it's

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really exciting on that note.

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I want to encourage you guys to please, if you can.

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Contribute to this program.

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I have started a Patrion as of last week.

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It is http://www.patreon.com/collierlandry,

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all the proceeds go to help make content that I feel connects

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best with you guys, my audience.

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So again, your support is so appreciated because, uh, this is a lot of work and,

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um, you guys help me create content that I feel that you guys are at least

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telling me is really valuable to you.

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And it's very awesome.

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But, um, your support is appreciated.

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Uh, okay.

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So speaking of support, I have somebody who has reached out to me on Instagram.

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It's our listener shout out of the week.

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And, um, this is from Kelly silver and she brings up a really interesting

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point that, um, I didn't think of.

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So I was recently on a podcast in the UK called the scary guy podcast

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and we talked all things, uh, moving past murder, uh, of course, right.

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But, uh, Kelly silver writes out to me on Instagram.

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Hey, call your hope all is well, I just finished listening to your

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appearance on the scary guy podcast and something that was really,

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that was said really stuck with me.

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When you were talking about getting strength from your mother, is it possible

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that she had some sort of gut feeling whether she acknowledged it or not?

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That there was a possibility she wouldn't be around your entire life?

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And that possibly is why she raised you to be such a pillar

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of strength, even as a child.

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Just some thoughts that popped into my head while listening

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during my morning commute, looking forward to Tuesday's IG Live.

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And, um, well thank you, Kelly.

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And I believe, as I mentioned on the podcast on the scary guy podcast,

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I've mentioned on this podcast before is my mother had alluded to.

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Saying something, um, where my father had arrived on new year's Eve, 1989.

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And he, he had arrived on new year's Eve, 1989.

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And he brought his grandmother.

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I'm sorry.

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He brought his mother, my grandmother, and he was really close to my mother.

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And she was on the phone with a friend and said, well, he brought it.

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He can't kill me tonight because he brought his mother.

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Um, as my mother would say, famous last words.

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Sorry if that's a bad pun, but my mother would have said that for sure.

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She was a big fan of saying for David's last words.

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Um, anyways, so, uh, yeah, I think that there is some truth to that.

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I think that when I look, when I think about my mother and how she

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raised me, first of all, I'm really grateful with how she brought me up.

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I look at.

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And I'm not a father full disclosure.

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I'm not a father, I'm a for daddy, but, um, I think about the way

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that parents raise children.

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And, um, again, I I'm, I'm no expert in parenting, but I do see those that

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coddle their children and how those individuals turn out or, or how they

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interact with them in their life.

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And those that aren't.

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Very disciplined by my mother.

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Uh, I'm sure that's not a surprise to anyone, so, but she

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treated me like a little adult.

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And I think that at the end of the day, that is why I became

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so resilient as a young man.

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Um, this last episode that we did with Dr.

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Dennis on the 18th of March, uh, we discuss, you know, him meeting me at that

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time and realizing that I though Facebook.

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Challenging circumstances.

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I was able to sort of, uh, face them head on, which was really cool, but I feel that

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that was a foundation that was laid for.

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It was set, um, by my mother that was laid for me by my mother.

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And, um, it's a really cool, cool thing when you think about it.

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Um, and I'm very grateful for her and of course I think about her every day.

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So, um, anyways, before I get all small team, I started crying.

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Um, okay.

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So a friend of mine hit me up on text.

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Week and a half ago and said, Hey man, have you seen this documentary, uh,

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American murder, the neighbor next door.

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And I was like, no.

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Now full disclosure.

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I know that I talk about true crime.

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My whole life is true crime.

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I am not a huge, true crime watcher of like murders and things like that.

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These things intrigued me for sure.

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I think I'm more like interested in things like the Tinder swindler or like

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financial crimes and how these people.

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Come up with these elaborate schemes that I kind of find interesting.

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No, no, no lie.

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Um, but, uh, murders and things like that, like they hit a little too close to home.

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And that brings me to today's episode about Chris Watts and

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the murder of his wife, Shannon Watts, and their two children.

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Um, I watched this documentary because my friend asked me multiple

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times, he's like, you got to watch this, you got to watch this.

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Um, and I literally texted him after I saw it because I couldn't

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sleep the rest of the night.

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Really.

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I try not to watch these things at night anyways, but it's sometimes

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you don't have a choice, but man, um, there are so many things that

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are just really hard to swallow or really hard to fathom in this case.

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Um, but I think for me, the thing that initially just caught

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me was the similarities between Chris Watts and my father.

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And when I think about what happened, look in the Chris Watts case, you know,

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he, he had a mistress as my father.

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Um, it was a little different, uh, But it's, there was just so many parallels.

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So that's what I'm going to get into today's episode about.

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So let's get into it.

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So in this documentary, it's called American murder, the family next

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store and not the neighbor next door.

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Sorry about that.

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Um, so in this documentary, the, uh, American murder, the family next door.

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The director, Jenny Popplewell, uh, explores the murder of Shannon Watts and

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her two daughters by Christopher Watts.

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And this is a very interesting documentary to me now, now as a

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filmmaker, this is very interesting to me because the whole documentary

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is all actually pretty much all.

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Footage.

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Yeah.

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It's actually all footage from social media because

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Shannon had lupus, I believe.

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Uh, so which is an auto-immune disease for those of you that aren't aware?

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Um, so she was suffering from lupus and she also had, um, you know, had a very

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big social media presence because of that.

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And she was talking to people about lupus and sharing her story to help others who

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have gone through similar circumstances.

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Sounds familiar.

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Doesn't it?

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Help them sort of deal with and reconcile with what they're, what

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they're going through with this physical, um, this physical element, right?

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The entire documentary is made up of all news footage, her footage

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from social media and, and then police body camera footage, and

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some drone stuff it's looking at.

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It is a really, really heavy.

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Film.

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And it's a heavy case.

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I remember it because it took place in Frederick, Colorado.

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That's the only thing I remembered, but I kind of put

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stuff like this out of my mind.

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And it happened in 2018 and I was releasing a murderer Mansfield

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and I was traveling around.

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So I wasn't paying attention to a lot of this stuff.

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The thing that strikes me the most is when my friend said, you need to watch this.

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He was very adamant.

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He wanted to know, do I draw any parallels?

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And oh my God.

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Do I draw so many parallels between my father and Chris Watts so much

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so that I have placed footage for us to listen to and go over

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of my father and of Chris Watts.

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Side-by-side so we can sort of examine these sociopath's really is what they are.

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Um, Chris, as you, if you don't know, in the case, he murdered his whole family, he

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had a girlfriend that he wanted to start a new life with and he even talks about how.

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Um, I've watched some other things about this case leading up to this

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episode, he'll talk about how he was very excited to start a new

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life after he murdered his family.

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I mean, it's nuts.

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It's, it's, it's so disturbing.

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Um, it's crazy, but I want to play a couple of things.

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Uh, three takes side-by-side discussing with you guys, because this is my

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take on Chris Watts and his, um, You know what I perceive to be his

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extreme sociopathy, uh, which is very unfortunate because people, you know,

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innocent people died and that sucks.

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Let's listen to this.

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I want them wherever they're at.

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Like, I have no inclination to where they're at right now.

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And it's just like, there's, it's like an advantage.

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Like, she's not like when I got home yesterday, it was like a ghost town.

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Like she wasn't here.

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I have no idea, like.

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So first off, this is an interview with Chris, which took place a

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day after his wife disappeared.

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So essentially what happened is the, um, the, the family disappeared.

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She was supposed to, she, the Shan was supposed to go to a doctor's appointment.

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She didn't show up for the doctor's appointment, the best friend

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called they couldn't find her.

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The whole family was gone.

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He was at work.

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He comes home.

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There's body camera footage of him.

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Then he finds her phone and he's like, everything's gone, everything's gone.

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And so this is the local news station talking to him basically.

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And he saying, you know, I just want her back or I don't know what happened.

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And it's just, it just, it gets creepier and it doesn't just earth shattering.

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I don't feel like this isn't even real right now.

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It's like a nightmare that I just can't wake up from.

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Well, okay.

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It's a nightmare.

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He can't wake up from well, um, Hey buddy, you caused the nightmare.

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So.

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Like I said, it's very disturbing.

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So he goes on, then I had the kids over the weekend.

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Did you see your wife?

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When she got home?

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She got home really late.

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About 2:00 AM from their.

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So apparently what happened is, is she, uh, Shanana had gone on a business

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trip to like Arizona or something.

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They live in Colorado, um, for a business that she was doing as she was coming back.

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And this was the reporter asking him.

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When's the last time you saw your wife?

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What's interesting is now I have my father on the witness stand talking

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about the last time he saw my mother.

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Do you have occasion to see, talk to neuro.

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Early morning of December 31st, 1989.

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Yeah.

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So that was the one, the sofa and the family room.

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And Maureen came down and woke me up.

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Um, she started hollering, uh, Jack, Jack, Jack, and, uh, uh,

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through credit cards at me.

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First of all, for those of you that don't know my mother, my mother, my

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mother would have never thrown critical.

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At my father, she never would have.

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She never would've let them leave her hands.

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That's the first thing, if she was leaving, did she leave the house then?

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Yes, she did.

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So I walked down the driveway.

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I ran back to the, uh, uh, table that sits there in the family room

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and put my glasses on and ran back again to see where she was going.

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What did you see?

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Uh, by the time I got there, I saw Noreen get into a car at the edge of the drive.

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Left the neck bar left in that car.

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Here's my father, uh, explaining how, what the last time, the last

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interaction he had with my mother was she got an, a, they got into a fight.

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She threw credit cards at him.

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Now this is at his trial.

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Mind you.

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So if you're listening, this is at my father's murder trial.

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This is approximately January, or I'm sorry, June.

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23rd, 1990.

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Um, he decided to take the witness stand because they always say that

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you shouldn't take the witness stand in your own defense, but because he's

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a narcissist and a sociopath, and he thought everyone would believe him.

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And he was smarter than everyone else.

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He took the witness tan to say all this fucking bullshit, um, which is this whole

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situation of this fight that happened.

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And all of us now.

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This was the last interaction that he had with her.

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So I'm going to back up just a little bit, and then I'm going

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to go back to Chris Watts.

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So the first thing is, is a lot of people ask me when they see the movie,

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a murder Amancio, which we're going to play some more of, of, of, of the

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scene with my father and I in prison.

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He said she came at him with a knife and this, that, and the other, or has

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he been saying that the whole time.

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This is the court testimony.

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This is him on the witness stand talking about the last time he saw my mother.

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There's no knife.

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There's no engagement.

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There's no, he pushed her.

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There's none of that.

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So for those of you that have seen the film, or that are wondering what

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he's talking about, the knife thing.

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I take you back to his trial when he's literally saying the last

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interaction I had with her, she threw credit cards at me and was yelling

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at me and then, or hollering as he puts it and then got in the car.

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He had to get his glasses.

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Then he saw her get into the car.

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At the end of the driveway.

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Our driveway was probably.

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Um, maybe 50 yards long and the dead of winter.

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And mind you, this is January.

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This would have been January, I'm sorry, December 31st, 1989.

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So, you know, my mom just tried it out to the car and got in and they

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didn't even come up to the house.

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You know, it's, it's ridiculous.

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Obviously he's lying because he murdered her.

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Um, but, uh, this is, this is the sociopath at work.

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So you have Chris Watts literally saying to her.

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You know, this is what, this is what happened and he's spinning his web.

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He's spinning his, his tail of, you know, I just want her back and the nightmare.

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And, uh, you know, like if anything have a back in fact,

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let's go to my next little part.

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So this is again the same interview.

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This is the day after he has murdered his entire family.

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And he's talking to the news.

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Let's check it out.

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I want them here.

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Like this house is not the same.

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I mean, I, last night it was traumatic.

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Last night was I can't really stay in this house again.

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Like with nobody here, poor guy cannot stay in his house with

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nobody here after he killed them.

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All this, this doesn't seem real at all.

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It just seems like I'm living in a nightmare and I can't get.

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Well, I mean, he is right.

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He is living in a nightmare that he cannot get out of because he committed

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this heinous atrocity to his own family.

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Um, but this is something that.

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Our last episode, which aired on May 18th was when I talked to Dr.

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Dennis , we discussed narcissism sociopathy.

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We discussed how it, all of that has related, uh, to my father in

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my film, a murderer Mansfield.

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And, um, you know, there is a very, uh, there is a very odd sort of phenomenon

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that happens with these people, and that is called the victim narcissist and.

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This guy, Chris Watts is trying to say is trying to turn us, draw us.

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Yeah.

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As he's trying to draw the reporters in to tell his tale of, uh, whatever

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bullshit he is showing here, um, that he misses his family that he killed

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and it's it's victim narcissism.

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So he, what he's doing is he's, he's trying to, he's trying to get

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your sympathy like, oh, poor dad.

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Doesn't have his wife doesn't have, is this that.

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That's what he's doing.

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So now I'm going to play a clip from a murderer Mansfield,

Speaker: 00:18:13

where I confront my father.

Speaker: 00:18:15

I read him a letter that he had sent back to me when I was, uh, 13 years old.

Speaker: 00:18:21

It was in 1993.

Speaker: 00:18:24

And I had asked him in this letter and I read this letter to him in the film, but

Speaker: 00:18:28

in this particular letter, I asked him if he could just please confess to murdering

Speaker: 00:18:32

my mother so I can move on with my life.

Speaker: 00:18:35

So my family can move on with my life.

Speaker: 00:18:36

So his girlfriend Sherry at the time could move on with his, with her, with

Speaker: 00:18:41

her life, uh, for my sister, my half sister that was born 12 days before

Speaker: 00:18:46

he was arrested, she could move on all that we could all have this piece.

Speaker: 00:18:50

Could you please just grant us that.

Speaker: 00:18:52

This piece.

Speaker: 00:18:53

That's what I asked him.

Speaker: 00:18:54

And I read him this letter in the film because he sent this letter back to

Speaker: 00:19:00

me and wrote on the envelope, refused.

Speaker: 00:19:02

He read it, put it back in the envelope, wrote, refused, send it back to me.

Speaker: 00:19:05

And I always kept it.

Speaker: 00:19:06

Like I kept, I have, like I said, 500 of his letters sitting here on my desk.

Speaker: 00:19:11

And, um, you know, I read these on the program, but this is a very key

Speaker: 00:19:14

letter that I read to him in prison.

Speaker: 00:19:17

And this is his take on this again, the victim narcissists.

Speaker: 00:19:22

I can't give you an explanation why I refuse that in 1993,

Speaker: 00:19:27

but I think it's fair to say.

Speaker: 00:19:28

I was angry about a lot of things.

Speaker: 00:19:31

He was angry.

Speaker: 00:19:32

I was in a spot, probably broken as I could possibly be low as I could

Speaker: 00:19:39

possibly be away from family and friends away from family and friends

Speaker: 00:19:47

in a situation that you create.

Speaker: 00:19:50

Uh, significant enough that, uh, I had considered killing myself.

Speaker: 00:19:54

I considered suicide.

Speaker: 00:19:58

Now, when I heard that, when he was telling me that in the film, in the

Speaker: 00:20:03

room, as this laying out, I was like, oh my God, I'm a very forgiving person.

Speaker: 00:20:09

I have forgiven my father.

Speaker: 00:20:10

I moved because as I explained before, as I will continue to explain

Speaker: 00:20:14

forgiveness, Is about you, not about them.

Speaker: 00:20:18

You're not giving up any power by moving on from that, I mean, this program is

Speaker: 00:20:23

called moving past murder for a reason.

Speaker: 00:20:26

And it's dealing with these challenging circumstances that you are faced in and,

Speaker: 00:20:30

you know, these seemingly insurmountable odds and, and a way to get past them.

Speaker: 00:20:34

And.

Speaker: 00:20:35

You know, part of that is to sort of take yourself out of it and

Speaker: 00:20:37

go, you're not giving anything up.

Speaker: 00:20:39

It's not about them.

Speaker: 00:20:41

It's about you and you leading.

Speaker: 00:20:42

And many of you have reached out, uh, acknowledging this and, and

Speaker: 00:20:46

finding the same, you know, peace in your own lives by doing just that.

Speaker: 00:20:50

Right.

Speaker: 00:20:51

Um, so I commend you guys for that.

Speaker: 00:20:53

I'm glad that I can lead by example.

Speaker: 00:20:54

But again, part of me, my empathetic self was like, oh my dad, my, you know, I

Speaker: 00:20:59

felt bad at that moment of like, oh, uh, wow, you thought about killing yourself.

Speaker: 00:21:05

What if that had happened?

Speaker: 00:21:06

And then part of me was like, are you kidding me?

Speaker: 00:21:08

Like, th like you thought about killing yourself.

Speaker: 00:21:11

What about your son that thought about killing himself?

Speaker: 00:21:13

You know?

Speaker: 00:21:13

Um, uh, it was literally going, I have no clue.

Speaker: 00:21:17

No father, no home, no dog, no, this, no that my old way of life is uprooted.

Speaker: 00:21:22

How about that?

Speaker: 00:21:23

Or how about your family?

Speaker: 00:21:23

How about the girls?

Speaker: 00:21:24

How about all these people?

Speaker: 00:21:26

Right.

Speaker: 00:21:28

Again, it's the victim narcissist, because it's all about them.

Speaker: 00:21:33

And that's why I, you know, I'm not here to give you the play by play

Speaker: 00:21:36

on the Chris Watts case, but I am pointing out these things that I find

Speaker: 00:21:41

very similar to my father's case.

Speaker: 00:21:45

Right.

Speaker: 00:21:46

Well, this is like, This is some hard shit to swallow, um,

Speaker: 00:21:52

because these people do this.

Speaker: 00:21:53

So he's trying to, you know, Chris Watts is trying to get

Speaker: 00:21:55

the media to feel sorry for him.

Speaker: 00:21:56

And he's trying to obviously spin this web of what happened to his wife.

Speaker: 00:22:01

I think, you know, it only took like, this was like a pretty, pretty like,

Speaker: 00:22:05

well, yeah, this is what happened.

Speaker: 00:22:07

I mean, there's a scene in the film and it's on the police officer's body

Speaker: 00:22:11

camera footage, because what happens is.

Speaker: 00:22:14

The hysterical.

Speaker: 00:22:15

We're not hysterical.

Speaker: 00:22:16

She wasn't hysterical in the film, but she was very concerned.

Speaker: 00:22:19

She didn't get a phone call from her friend and they had, they had

Speaker: 00:22:21

traveled the night before, um, in, from Arizona, she had gotten in late.

Speaker: 00:22:26

She was supposed to go to her doctor's appointment because she had lupus.

Speaker: 00:22:28

So she needed to have a routine health checkups.

Speaker: 00:22:31

And her friend was concerned about her.

Speaker: 00:22:33

Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker: 00:22:34

Also she was.

Speaker: 00:22:36

What I find just, just so reprehensible about all of that is they are,

Speaker: 00:22:44

is, you know, so he, he thought he could just get away with this.

Speaker: 00:22:48

And then the friend comes to the house, the.

Speaker: 00:22:51

It can't get in.

Speaker: 00:22:52

Then she calls the cops.

Speaker: 00:22:53

The cops were like, well, we can't go in until he arrived.

Speaker: 00:22:55

So he arrives.

Speaker: 00:22:56

And then the neighbor has like, as a good neighbor, you know, I have cameras

Speaker: 00:22:59

at my house and I've had neighbors say, oh, can you look at your camera?

Speaker: 00:23:03

Because somebody stole my bicycle or something, you know, as a

Speaker: 00:23:05

good neighbor, they had a camera and they were showing his truck.

Speaker: 00:23:09

And you know, this guy is like, freaking out this.

Speaker: 00:23:12

Oh, my God, here we are with the cops.

Speaker: 00:23:14

It's on the body camera footage.

Speaker: 00:23:15

We're watching his television of his CCTV and it shows my truck.

Speaker: 00:23:19

And you don't see anything.

Speaker: 00:23:20

You don't see him like taking bodies out or anything to the truck.

Speaker: 00:23:23

So Chris leaves, this is the first time the police come to the house.

Speaker: 00:23:27

Soon as he leaves, they were looking at the cop, literally

Speaker: 00:23:30

all of the body camera footage.

Speaker: 00:23:31

He goes, he's acting really funny.

Speaker: 00:23:34

Like he's acting really strange.

Speaker: 00:23:37

I mean, This guy has got it written all over his face, which means that like, at

Speaker: 00:23:42

that point, I mean, I think if you're a reasonable or a rational part, well, first

Speaker: 00:23:46

of all, if you're a reasonable, rational person, you do not do something like this.

Speaker: 00:23:48

That's the first thing.

Speaker: 00:23:50

But the second thing is you think that you're probably caught, but oh no.

Speaker: 00:23:54

Oh no.

Speaker: 00:23:55

Oh no, it would, of course it wouldn't be that easy.

Speaker: 00:23:57

Of course he wouldn't have that much dignity and respect for.

Speaker: 00:24:02

His slain wife, children, her family, the community, that's all

Speaker: 00:24:07

rallied around, concerned about his missing wife and children, the

Speaker: 00:24:11

police officers, all of these people.

Speaker: 00:24:13

Of course, he can't do that.

Speaker: 00:24:15

Of course he can't say, I be just like my father, it's a missing persons case.

Speaker: 00:24:18

And without his son screaming to hold that my mother was murdered.

Speaker: 00:24:22

Nobody listens right here.

Speaker: 00:24:24

We have the same thing, Chris Watts.

Speaker: 00:24:27

He is literally, so the police.

Speaker: 00:24:30

The police bring him to the police station and they say, we want

Speaker: 00:24:35

you to take a lie detector test.

Speaker: 00:24:36

And this woman's administering the lie detector test.

Speaker: 00:24:39

And I would love to talk to her.

Speaker: 00:24:40

I'm just curious what was going through her head because she, everyone

Speaker: 00:24:44

knows that this guy did something.

Speaker: 00:24:45

He don't know what he did or what the extent was.

Speaker: 00:24:49

You know, something happened, right?

Speaker: 00:24:51

So she gives him this lie detector task, which he fails miserably

Speaker: 00:24:55

because he's lying, you know?

Speaker: 00:24:57

W do you know what happened to her?

Speaker: 00:24:58

Did you cause anything to make her disappear?

Speaker: 00:25:00

Like they're asking all these provocative questions and, you know, he's being very

Speaker: 00:25:05

provocative in it and you know, and, oh, I don't know this and that any doubles

Speaker: 00:25:09

down on it, which is the crazy thing.

Speaker: 00:25:12

She comes into the room.

Speaker: 00:25:13

She's like, you already.

Speaker: 00:25:14

Failed the lie detector test.

Speaker: 00:25:15

So now let's get in, let's get real.

Speaker: 00:25:17

Let's get real dude about what really happened.

Speaker: 00:25:20

Why don't you tell us what happened?

Speaker: 00:25:21

So we can wrap this up and he's still saying like, oh, I don't, I don't

Speaker: 00:25:26

know why I failed the light and he's still trying to perpetrate the lie

Speaker: 00:25:29

because he's convincing himself.

Speaker: 00:25:30

Right.

Speaker: 00:25:32

And this is what I want to talk about, because this is really crazy.

Speaker: 00:25:34

So let's listen.

Speaker: 00:25:36

We know that something happened to all three of them, but I want

Speaker: 00:25:40

to know if something happened to these baby girls from.

Speaker: 00:25:44

That you had to take into your own hands and deal with, if you guys

Speaker: 00:25:50

didn't quite a hundred sand, that, so basically is the investigator, the female

Speaker: 00:25:55

investigator that administered the lie detector tests and saying to him, Hey,

Speaker: 00:25:59

um, we know that something happened.

Speaker: 00:26:01

This is the amazing thing to me about people that perpetrate

Speaker: 00:26:03

these crimes, these investigators, these police officers deal with.

Speaker: 00:26:07

All day, every day.

Speaker: 00:26:09

Some of them are obviously better than others, but this is an investigator.

Speaker: 00:26:12

I believe this is like the Colorado bureau of investigation, which

Speaker: 00:26:17

is like right below the FBI.

Speaker: 00:26:18

So.

Speaker: 00:26:20

Have a little bit of a clue, know how to profile people, this

Speaker: 00:26:24

guy throwing them, anything new that they've never seen before.

Speaker: 00:26:27

Like they know they already know.

Speaker: 00:26:29

They're just like, please, buddy, just make it, make it easy on us.

Speaker: 00:26:33

But what she does is she gives him the out.

Speaker: 00:26:37

So she says, what I want to know is what happened first and what she's insinuating

Speaker: 00:26:43

is did Shanana the mother killed.

Speaker: 00:26:47

The kids, and then you killed her in retaliation, which we

Speaker: 00:26:52

know by the way is not the case.

Speaker: 00:26:55

But again, victim narcissist here, he latches onto this

Speaker: 00:27:00

idea and he's like, oh, okay.

Speaker: 00:27:02

And later, according to court documents, the reason why he latched onto this

Speaker: 00:27:08

story is because the female investigator.

Speaker: 00:27:10

Brought it up to him or investigators brought up that, oh, the wife

Speaker: 00:27:13

could've, it could've killed the kids.

Speaker: 00:27:15

So therefore you took, you know, cowboy justice and, you know, killed

Speaker: 00:27:20

your wife because she killed her.

Speaker: 00:27:22

There's so many things wrong with this.

Speaker: 00:27:23

First of all, that he's in and we're going to listen to the next part, because

Speaker: 00:27:26

what they do is they brought his dad.

Speaker: 00:27:28

So he lives in Colorado.

Speaker: 00:27:29

His dad he's from North Carolina or South Carolina.

Speaker: 00:27:32

His dad flies out obviously as a good father.

Speaker: 00:27:35

And I have to say, they're being very cool when you're watching them.

Speaker: 00:27:39

Like, they're not like pounding that it's not like a scene out of like

Speaker: 00:27:42

CSI or something or they're grabbing.

Speaker: 00:27:45

Not that they're very calm and collected.

Speaker: 00:27:47

And obviously, because they knew they had them, like I said, dead to rights,

Speaker: 00:27:51

but so they bring his dad in and they, you know, their dad sits down with him.

Speaker: 00:27:56

This is what this guy says.

Speaker: 00:27:58

Well, I don't want to protect her.

Speaker: 00:28:01

She heard him.

Speaker: 00:28:02

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:11

So he had this.

Speaker: 00:28:14

In the beginning.

Speaker: 00:28:14

I don't want to protect her meaning that he's not going to protect her anymore

Speaker: 00:28:19

because she perpetrated killing the kids.

Speaker: 00:28:22

And then the dad's like, so she heard them and he says, yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:26

And then he whispers as if they're not like taping in the room.

Speaker: 00:28:29

And then I killed her.

Speaker: 00:28:30

This is where it goes well beyond the pale.

Speaker: 00:28:33

Right.

Speaker: 00:28:34

This is a guy who not only has committed this heinous act.

Speaker: 00:28:39

He is doubled down on this lie that be investigators, like put it in his brain,

Speaker: 00:28:44

like, oh yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker: 00:28:46

Like, oh yeah.

Speaker: 00:28:47

And I can remember when I was a kid, when my mother went missing,

Speaker: 00:28:50

I said, where's my mother.

Speaker: 00:28:51

I'm talking to my father.

Speaker: 00:28:52

And we did this brainstorm session.

Speaker: 00:28:55

And.

Speaker: 00:28:56

I said something where my mom wanted to always go to Toronto and, uh, which is

Speaker: 00:29:02

ironic because, uh, my film premiered at the, uh, 2018 hot docs film festival.

Speaker: 00:29:07

I actually have a tattoo from the film festival, its logo right here

Speaker: 00:29:10

that I got while I was up there.

Speaker: 00:29:12

It was the 25th year of the festival was really amazing.

Speaker: 00:29:15

Um, and my mother's place that she wanted to take me when I

Speaker: 00:29:18

was a kid was always Toronto.

Speaker: 00:29:21

Cool little symbiotic thing that happened anyways, um, to be

Speaker: 00:29:25

able to present the film there.

Speaker: 00:29:26

And it was really well received.

Speaker: 00:29:27

It's such a great festival.

Speaker: 00:29:29

Hot docs were amazing.

Speaker: 00:29:30

Thank you.

Speaker: 00:29:31

Um, anyways, we had this brainstorm session and my dad was like,

Speaker: 00:29:34

oh yeah, well maybe Bobby.

Speaker: 00:29:35

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:36

She could have gone to, to Toronto.

Speaker: 00:29:38

Yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:38

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:38

That's a good idea.

Speaker: 00:29:39

So he started like latching on it.

Speaker: 00:29:40

I call this like the grabbing at straws sort of defense.

Speaker: 00:29:44

Right.

Speaker: 00:29:44

They, they they're trying to, they're like, oh, that's a great idea.

Speaker: 00:29:47

Oh yeah.

Speaker: 00:29:48

That's what happened because they already know about.

Speaker: 00:29:50

Also, so wrapped up in their own, um, deceit of themselves and they're believing

Speaker: 00:29:57

the story and they're selling that, that narrative to you, hoping that you'll

Speaker: 00:30:01

buy it as the investigator, as the court or whatever, and are so like, there's

Speaker: 00:30:05

so convincing, which is just scary.

Speaker: 00:30:07

We're going to listen to this expert excerpt and just see.

Speaker: 00:30:11

Again, a similarity with a son confessing to his father.

Speaker: 00:30:16

Right.

Speaker: 00:30:17

So bullshit.

Speaker: 00:30:18

And now a father confessing to his son, some bullshit.

Speaker: 00:30:22

The Mike killed her by accident yeah.

Speaker: 00:30:27

By accident.

Speaker: 00:30:29

But I don't believe you.

Speaker: 00:30:35

It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker: 00:30:37

You know, Elizabeth gave a statement.

Speaker: 00:30:42

That good.

Speaker: 00:30:43

His daddy came in and hit mommy and wrapped her up like a snowman

Speaker: 00:30:48

and show the investigators how they wrapped her, how the body was.

Speaker: 00:30:54

What I'm referring to?

Speaker: 00:30:54

There is my, uh, my, my adopted sister who was adopted from Taiwan six months before

Speaker: 00:30:59

my mother was killed, used to leave her bed in the middle of the night and go into

Speaker: 00:31:03

my mother's room and sleep in her bed.

Speaker: 00:31:05

So she had explained Gaga by the way, it means brother and, um,

Speaker: 00:31:09

in Chinese and Mandarin Chinese.

Speaker: 00:31:11

So that's why I say Gaga.

Speaker: 00:31:13

So she used to call me Gaga as when she was little, right.

Speaker: 00:31:16

Uh, I mean, I haven't seen.

Speaker: 00:31:18

30 years or whatever, but anyways, it's unfortunate consequences of all

Speaker: 00:31:21

of this is the family gets destroyed.

Speaker: 00:31:24

Um, but no, but it all seriousness.

Speaker: 00:31:27

So that's what Google means.

Speaker: 00:31:28

So she had stole Dave mass more, you know, he wrapped her up like a snowman showed

Speaker: 00:31:34

this, and that was like a huge thing.

Speaker: 00:31:36

Now, obviously she was three years old and they weren't going to have her testify.

Speaker: 00:31:39

Um, but that was something that was like, oh, for me, it's less about

Speaker: 00:31:43

like what she says and what she.

Speaker: 00:31:46

Yeah, you then what she saw, which this still haunts me to this day.

Speaker: 00:31:50

Hey, um, you know, Elizabeth or now Caitlin, if you're watching

Speaker: 00:31:54

this, this bothers me every single day and I hope that you're okay.

Speaker: 00:31:58

Like straight up all just, if you are listening to this, I

Speaker: 00:32:02

just pray that you're okay.

Speaker: 00:32:03

You don't ever have to talk to me again.

Speaker: 00:32:05

I just pray that you're okay.

Speaker: 00:32:06

Okay.

Speaker: 00:32:06

Uh, or ever see me again.

Speaker: 00:32:08

I don't, I don't care.

Speaker: 00:32:09

I just want to know you're all right.

Speaker: 00:32:10

That's it, because this is really hard and, um, And I know you were there and

Speaker: 00:32:15

it fucking makes me, it makes me really sad that, that you witnessed this.

Speaker: 00:32:23

Um, he didn't deserve that.

Speaker: 00:32:27

None of us deserve this anyways, but okay.

Speaker: 00:32:29

Anyways, I digress, uh, again, so I'm trying to present this to my

Speaker: 00:32:34

father and, and here we go with more of the, the, uh, the story.

Speaker: 00:32:42

She was in the bed.

Speaker: 00:32:44

So again, do you really want to tell me what happened?

Speaker: 00:32:49

I've told you what happened?

Speaker: 00:32:50

Collier?

Speaker: 00:32:52

I did not kill mommy.

Speaker: 00:32:54

I did not kill my wife in the bedroom.

Speaker: 00:32:58

It was downstairs when I pushed her because I really believe

Speaker: 00:33:04

she was coming to kill me.

Speaker: 00:33:07

No.

Speaker: 00:33:08

Let's just unpack all of that.

Speaker: 00:33:10

So again, here's a narrative that he latches on to, um, uh, again, this denial,

Speaker: 00:33:16

but there's something that's really key.

Speaker: 00:33:18

And I didn't even think about this earlier, but this is something that

Speaker: 00:33:22

there's a moment in the film when I'm talking about, like, I had seen the

Speaker: 00:33:24

case file of my mother's body and I talk about the skull being crushed.

Speaker: 00:33:30

I don't know if it was or not.

Speaker: 00:33:31

I can't really remember at the time, but I know that I said that

Speaker: 00:33:34

because it was a very dramatic thing.

Speaker: 00:33:36

So one of the things that I have.

Speaker: 00:33:38

With my father and people like him, is that what they do is they

Speaker: 00:33:43

latch onto like the tiniest detail.

Speaker: 00:33:45

Right.

Speaker: 00:33:46

And if they can prove, you know, it was a professor, professor green and the,

Speaker: 00:33:51

uh, in the billiards room with the candle stack at, at the stroke of midnight.

Speaker: 00:33:56

Nope.

Speaker: 00:33:56

It wasn't a stroke of midnight.

Speaker: 00:33:58

It was 1:00 AM.

Speaker: 00:33:59

So you got the time wrong.

Speaker: 00:34:00

So it wasn't professor gree with the candlestick in the billiard room.

Speaker: 00:34:04

You know what I mean?

Speaker: 00:34:04

They think that like, if you get one minor detail wrong, then

Speaker: 00:34:08

therefore they're innocent or that their story somehow holds water.

Speaker: 00:34:12

It's very odd.

Speaker: 00:34:13

Um, so again, he's trying to say, well, you know, I didn't kill her.

Speaker: 00:34:17

I didn't kill her upstairs in the bedroom, but downstairs when she came

Speaker: 00:34:23

in, I thought she was coming to kill me.

Speaker: 00:34:25

So why don't you take me to the trial?

Speaker: 00:34:29

And he saying essentially, Uh, by the time I got there, I saw Noreen get

Speaker: 00:34:35

into a car at the edge of the driveway, left the neck far left in that car.

Speaker: 00:34:42

So again, the whole thing, and the whole reason why I play this is because there

Speaker: 00:34:48

is, you know, they latch on to these things and they're just trying to sell it.

Speaker: 00:34:56

But again, you know, there's my father, 26 years later telling me a

Speaker: 00:34:59

whole different story because he's had 26 years to sort of figure out.

Speaker: 00:35:03

So when I look at this Chris Watts case, this is the thing that really hits me.

Speaker: 00:35:10

My sister was in the bed.

Speaker: 00:35:13

I believe I'm asleep.

Speaker: 00:35:17

I hear my father's footsteps walked down the hall, but let's

Speaker: 00:35:20

just take it back for a second.

Speaker: 00:35:22

If I jump up at 11 years old and asthmatic kid jobs up, my father was six foot three.

Speaker: 00:35:30

220 pounds probably at that time.

Speaker: 00:35:35

Uh, man, you know, if I go into the bedroom, when I hear the thoughts

Speaker: 00:35:40

and I see what had just happened, you've already dug one hole.

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It's not that hard to make it a little bit.

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To fit two or three bodies.

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And, um, and that's why I've talked about, like, when I went to his

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footsteps and I could see them out of my peripheral vision while I'm sleeping,

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I could see his feet in the doorway.

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I was like, don't look up.

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Like, I felt like my mother was saying, do not look up because

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I feel like if I had gone, like.

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I wouldn't be sitting here.

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Cause again, you've already dug the hole, man.

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It's not hard to throw another body in there.

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It really isn't.

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And I know that's a really sad way to look at it, but look, this is my life.

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And when I, you know, for me, probably the most poignant detail

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of the Chris Watts case was the fact that he killed those kids.

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And I don't, I'm not going to get into how that happened, but it was gruesome and.

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He discusses how their voices haunt him.

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And I say good as they should.

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Um, it it's, it, it, for me, that's probably what hit home is that that

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could have been me at any moment.

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And it's a really sobering thought to sort of take away

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or could be my sister to which.

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Unfortunately, it was not.

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Um, as I discussed earlier in the program, um, forgiveness, uh, I know

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this was a lot to take in and playing the soundbites and things like that.

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I really hope you guys like that.

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I like doing this.

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I think it was really cool.

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I've never done this before, did an episode.

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So for me, I found this really beneficial to show some visuals and some more audio

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for you guys, but look, um, this is what I want you guys to take away from this.

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First of all the families of not only shit Ann's family.

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And I don't know, I can't remember her name, maiden name, but shit Ann's

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family, but also the Watts family, you know, they were in the courtroom,

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they were there when he was sentenced.

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And finally, when it went to trial, he just, I don't even think he, I think

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he just pled guilty and was like, as someone who has been through this.

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Is not lost on me, how difficult it is to reconcile, losing somebody.

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You love losing a daughter, losing a sister, losing a daughter-in-law

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losing your grandchildren.

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Judy says, NEF, your DCIS.

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I hope that they've, I mean, it's been what, three, four years.

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I mean, we've dealt with a global pandemic and now we're in the middle of a war.

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I mean, it's, the world is a very scary and dark place sometimes.

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But on the flip side, this is what I want you guys to take away from this episode.

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And from, from me doing this show, the world is also an amazing place.

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And amazing and beautiful place.

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And I know there are dark things that happen, but I have living

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proof that it gets better and that you can make a difference in your

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small little corner of the world.

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Anyways, I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder, thanks y'all.

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This podcast is made possible by support from listeners, just like you.

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Please subscribe via apple podcast, Spotify audible.

Speaker: 00:39:39

Find us on YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/collierlandry

Speaker: 00:39:48

The film or murder and Mansfield is available on investigation

Speaker: 00:39:51

discovery, discovery.

Speaker: 00:39:53

And Amazon prime.

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This podcast is a production of don't touch my radio in association with

Speaker: 00:40:05

RSA entertainment, please visit MPM podcast.com to show your support.