Surviving 'A Murder in Mansfield' with Psychologist Dr. Dennis Marikis

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:05

What I saw in that 11 year old is it is a person that was

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:09

clear, directed, focused, and a remarkably resilient because in that short time, you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:16

know, clearly the biggest loss was your mother, but you did lose your father.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:20

You really did lose your father.

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You lost your dog, you lost your sister, you lost your home.

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And this amazing 11 year old with all that, as the backdrop, knowing that he was

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going to testify in court at some point was clear and defined and very resilient.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:41

I think that that may be a gift that Marine gave you maybe, but

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:45

clearly it's just who you are.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:47

And as you've approached other challenges, you realize there's this fortitude in

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:00:52

you that I think it's dispositional.

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I think it's this kind of built in.

Collier Landry: 00:01:00

The testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal

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trial in Richland county history.

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Dr.

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John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Marine and burying

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her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania.

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The 12 year old son finally took the stand.

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I heard a scream I hearda thud it's about this loud.

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We have a jury find the defendant guilty when I was 12 years old,

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my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother.

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This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for

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myself, and it is my hope that it helps anyone who is experienced

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deception, betrayal, and dark trial.

Collier Landry: 00:01:36

I'm Collier Landry and this is moving past murder, Hey Movers what's going on?

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Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder.

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Uh, today I have a really cool episode for you guys, a really, really cool

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interview with somebody who's been, who's had a major impact on my life, but

Collier Landry: 00:01:54

first I want to say again, thank you all so much for tuning in every week to my

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IG lives, which are on every Tuesday, 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern time.

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I'm really enjoying getting to have this little banter with you

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guys and getting to know you.

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So thank you very much.

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That is on my Instagram channel, which is @collierlandry, which should be like right

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here for those of you watching on YouTube.

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And I wanted to thank you guys for coming out for that and supporting

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also, uh, now the Patrion page is live.

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Yes, it is live.

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There's all kinds of really cool bonus stuff.

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My film there's my Dr.

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Phil episode.

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There's a probably gonna get in trouble for this I'm sure, but there's a

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lot of really cool exclusive content for you guys to check out on there.

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Some behind the scenes stuff from his behind the scenes

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stuff from me, making the.

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Um, so slowly I'm rolling all that content out.

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I really look forward to you guys, uh, joining and it

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helps to support this podcast.

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And so I really appreciate that.

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Also, if you are watching on YouTube, please remember to

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click like and subscribe because it helps with the algorithms.

Collier Landry: 00:02:55

All right.

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Enough of the sales pitch listeners shout out out of the week, goes

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to Amanda Dawes, 72 on Instagram.

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She reached out and had sent me this really cool message.

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And I'm going to use the glasses here to read this to you guys.

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She says foundation of lies turned on the TV tonight on forensic files.

Collier Landry: 00:03:12

I followed your story for years, mate.

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Just wanted to say what a brave boy you were.

Collier Landry: 00:03:17

My son is 11 now, and I am a single parent and I would be so proud of him.

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If anything happened to me.

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And he did what you did, your mum would be looking down on you now thinking what an

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amazing son I have and be, and be so proud on what you keep on, what you achieved

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and keeping her beautiful soul alive.

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Just amazing.

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And don't forget, I will buy you efficient trips when you're in the UK or a kebab.

Collier Landry: 00:03:44

Well, thank you, Amanda, for setting that, uh, I know you've been a big supporter

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of the program and, uh, being on the IgE lives every week and giving me shout outs.

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It's very cool.

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Um, and you know, this week, we're going to kind of talk about how, what happened

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when my mother's body was found and when, uh, the, after the murder had taken

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place and everyone knew, uh, that she was found today's episode is really cool.

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And it's something that a lot of you have really reached out and wanted to

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hear, hear from this particular guest.

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So my guest today is Dr.

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Dennis . Dennis was the psychologist that was interviewed that I'm sorry

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that I worked with in the film of murder and Mansfield, and a lot of

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you that have seen the film have gleaned a lot of insight from his.

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Take on trauma and how it affect me at, at that time as a child, how

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it affects me as an adult and, you know, going into seeing my father.

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And then obviously after the scene with my father, coming back to him and talking

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to him and being sort of a fly on the wall on those therapy sessions seems

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to have really, really resonated with many of you and many people around the

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world that have seen the documentary.

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So I'm very excited to him have him as a guest today.

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Um, he was also sort of the first responder that was on the scene when my

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mother was found murdered, uh, underneath my father's house in Erie, Pennsylvania.

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So he was at the school and he was the first person to

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really talk to me about this.

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So he's going to share his insight on that.

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So here we go.

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I really hope you guys enjoy this episode.

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And my guest is Dr.

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Dennis Morris, and I'm pleased to welcome him to this.

Collier Landry: 00:05:29

So, Hey Dennis, thank you so much for joining us.

Collier Landry: 00:05:31

I, uh, I appreciate your time.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:05:33

Well, it's quite an honor to be with you again, as I

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:05:36

really look forward to seeing you again, Collier and it's a wonderful to see you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:05:41

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:05:41

Oh, likewise, likewise.

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And you know, I, when I reached out to you on the podcast, I told you that you, uh,

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that you have quite a fan base that has emerged, um, with the work that we, you

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know, we showed on camera and, you know, one of the things that we were just, you

Collier Landry: 00:05:57

know, discussing is sort of in, in the moment when you and I were there talking

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about my issues and what was going on is that we really kept the authenticity high

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because it was just a natural meeting.

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I mean, I had not seen you since I was 11 years old, I think for our listeners

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and F, and even for me, What ha.

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So if you could take us back to that day, which was January

Collier Landry: 00:06:25

25th, 1990, when you came to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:06:27

discovery school, I was doing some work at

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discovery school, working with some of the kids as they were struggling.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:06:33

And then this event occurred and everything was so centered

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on the challenges that created.

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And they looked at you, I think in some respects, and they were

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:06:41

concerned about its impact.

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And whether you were, should we talk to you or not?

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And there were some concerns about how, how fragile they were.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:06:49

I don't think they knew you because that's not you, you weren't fragile.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:06:53

It was upsetting, horrifically upsetting.

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There's no question about that.

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But the issue was what I saw in that 11 year old is that is a person that was

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:03

clear, directed, focused, and a remarkably resilient because in that short time, you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:10

know, clearly the biggest loss was your mother, but you did lose your father.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:14

You really did lose your father.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:16

You lost your dog.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:18

You lost your sister, you lost her home and this amazing 11 year old with all

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:26

that, as the backdrop, knowing that he was going to testify in court at some point.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:31

Was clear and defined and very resilient.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:35

I think that that may be a gift that Marine gave you maybe, but

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:39

clearly it's just who you are.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:42

And as you've approached other challenges, you realize there's this fortitude in

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:07:46

you that I think it's dispositional.

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I think it's just kind of built in you.

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I know the situations, certainly, you know, when we build resilience,

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we build resilience by facing tough.

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But there's some people.

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And I think you're clearly one of those that don't really have difficulties

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looking at tough stuff and saying, I got to do something about this.

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Even your podcast reflects that, helping others.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:08:11

And I think that's really key.

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So back then, um, you were, uh, you were, uh, even you had a great sense of humor.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:08:18

You were a guy that, that typically even in the midst of all, this

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could talk like an adult with, with no problematic pattern, you

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spoke like an adult, I'm sure.

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You know, the time you spent with your mom and, and the environment made

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:08:33

that pretty clearly easier for you, you were grieving, but you're also,

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there was a part of you that said, you know, I'm going to move forward.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:08:40

I felt you felt so directed at what you were doing.

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And I think that was really a strength of yours and, you know,

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everyone else was just stunned by all the events, but it was more than

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that for you, you, you focused on.

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I want to protect.

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I want to help as best I can at that time.

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We didn't know what happened to your mom.

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Uh, I want to do the most I can do, you know, so that mom feels

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that, that you are in her corner and now we're trying to help her.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:09:09

And I think that's what you did.

Collier Landry: 00:09:13

Wow.

Collier Landry: 00:09:14

That's really powerful.

Collier Landry: 00:09:15

Well, first of all, that's amazing to hear that I had an impact at that time on you

Collier Landry: 00:09:24

and that there were these key indicators.

Collier Landry: 00:09:28

I mean, so that I was going to be okay.

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I guess one of the crazy things about doing the podcast is, you know, as,

Collier Landry: 00:09:37

as you know, I was like abandoned by my entire family, my mother's side

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and my father's side and having lost my mother and my home and my dog and

Collier Landry: 00:09:46

my, you know, my whole way of life.

Collier Landry: 00:09:47

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:09:49

I.

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I've reconnected with somebody whose relatives, Tik TOK.

Collier Landry: 00:09:56

Yeah, because they saw the New York post article that came out, you know,

Collier Landry: 00:09:59

a month ago, not even a month ago that makes, you know, they started listening

Collier Landry: 00:10:02

to podcasts or they followed me on Tik TOK and they just started reaching out.

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And it was interesting because they weren't immediate relatives.

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They were, you know, one of them was married to my father's cousin, my

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father's first cousin, but knew my mother.

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And there's two wonderful things about it.

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And my mother's side of the family that are like doing

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genealogies have reached out to me.

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It's really amazing.

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One of the things that is the general sentiment from everyone is first

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of all, they can't understand why nobody stepped up in the family

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and they were distant relatives.

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So they weren't in that.

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They were like, why didn't you immediately?

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Why didn't your mom's sister take you?

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Why don't you follow your brother, take you?

Collier Landry: 00:10:38

Why didn't these people step up and you know, what was going on?

Collier Landry: 00:10:45

On the flip side, they have these wonderful remembrances of my mother.

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And they'll say things like, God, I watched the podcast

Collier Landry: 00:10:52

and I watched you on camera.

Collier Landry: 00:10:53

It's like seeing your mother.

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It's like, uh, it's, it's a ma you're so much like your mother, you are.

Collier Landry: 00:10:58

And of course they have all these wonderful stories about her, uh,

Collier Landry: 00:11:02

of just that, you know, like when I made the film, I didn't realize that

Collier Landry: 00:11:07

my mother had put my father through medical school, you know, and finding

Collier Landry: 00:11:11

out all these things was really crazy because I didn't grow up knowing that.

Collier Landry: 00:11:15

Um, so that was really cool.

Collier Landry: 00:11:20

And the impact that my mother had on these people was probably the most interesting,

Collier Landry: 00:11:24

because what they said is they said, we didn't know what happened to you.

Collier Landry: 00:11:30

And we always wondered, but we knew because you were Naureen son,

Collier Landry: 00:11:36

you were going to figure it out.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:11:38

Is that helpful?

Collier Landry: 00:11:41

Hmm, that's powerful.

Collier Landry: 00:11:41

That's the impact that my mother had or relatives that are, you know, distant

Collier Landry: 00:11:49

relatives, but they all said, you know, wherever this kid is, he's, he's going

Collier Landry: 00:11:55

to be okay because that's Norine son.

Collier Landry: 00:11:58

That's so heartwarming to hear it is such a tribute to my mother.

Collier Landry: 00:12:06

Um, which is just it, which just makes me smile.

Collier Landry: 00:12:12

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:12:12

On the

Collier Landry: 00:12:12

flip

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side,

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there are the same relatives that obviously had

Collier Landry: 00:12:18

experiences with my father and.

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I guess one of the things that I, you know, I did this

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episode about my birthday.

Collier Landry: 00:12:29

I turned 44 a couple of days ago, and that was the age my mother was killed.

Collier Landry: 00:12:34

Thank you so much.

Collier Landry: 00:12:36

The real birthday is actually happening tomorrow, which is, which will be,

Collier Landry: 00:12:41

uh, March 5th, because that's when my little dog Blondie turned 17.

Collier Landry: 00:12:46

Oh my

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:46

goodness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:47

Yes.

Collier Landry: 00:12:48

So that is the one we're celebrating in my

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:50

mind.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:50

Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:51

Gotcha.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:51

Gotcha.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:12:52

But are you somewhat conscious about aging?

Collier Landry: 00:12:55

Do you, do you think?

Collier Landry: 00:12:57

Well, I think that what I was, what I was conscious about is the fact that

Collier Landry: 00:13:02

this is what my mother turned 44.

Collier Landry: 00:13:03

So that was a milestone for me murdered at 44.

Collier Landry: 00:13:07

And then the next milestone will be like my father when he was 46, getting arrested

Collier Landry: 00:13:12

and murdering my mother and all that.

Collier Landry: 00:13:13

So that happens.

Collier Landry: 00:13:15

So I, one of the things I want to ask you.

Collier Landry: 00:13:21

Is it, you know, with the flip side with my father, there's the bad things, right?

Collier Landry: 00:13:27

There's all these wonderful things and traits about my mother, but then

Collier Landry: 00:13:30

my father has traits and I obviously half of his blood courses, my veins.

Collier Landry: 00:13:35

And I think that a lot of people when they reach out to me on the podcast,

Collier Landry: 00:13:40

um, and after seeing the film and our work in the film and seeing my father,

Collier Landry: 00:13:45

right, they wonder, is this something that is hereditary is his sociopathy.

Collier Landry: 00:13:52

And I know you like to, you don't want to, you, you stray away from that term

Collier Landry: 00:13:56

because it's not recognized, but, um, are traits that my father exhibits the

Collier Landry: 00:14:01

narcissism, the, and I don't know if he's a covert narcissist or he's an

Collier Landry: 00:14:07

overt narcissist or a little bit of both, but the, the, these traits are

Collier Landry: 00:14:12

these something that people who have relatives or that have grown up with this.

Collier Landry: 00:14:19

Have a danger of repeating.

Collier Landry: 00:14:21

What are your thoughts on that?

Collier Landry: 00:14:22

Is that something that should be worried?

Collier Landry: 00:14:24

Uh, I

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:25

mean, I think we all should be concerned in our

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:28

lives about, are we caring and concerned about others enough?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:31

I think that's a fair statement.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:34

I think it's also a fair statement that you have to work a little

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:37

bit more consciously about that kind of issue of showing empathy

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:40

and being concerned with others.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:42

Because I think the cost in the behavior growing up is that you didn't see

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:47

it modeled except for your mother.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:48

Thank goodness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:49

Your mom was just richly, empathic, and she was emotionally aware and

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:54

all those things were who she was.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:14:57

You know, you're a male and you do identify more significantly with

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your father simply because of that perspective, that developmental issue.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:06

And that's a huge one.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:07

So I do think when you decide how to be a man, your primary person

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:13

growing up really was your father.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:16

You understood, caring and concerned about others from your mother.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:20

That in itself probably facilitates you not having those challenges.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:23

If your mom was absent and distant, the chances are you identifying more with your

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:29

father would have been more significant.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:32

So there's a little bit of research that supports that there are some

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:35

of those, uh, pre-existing sort of characteristics that may come from

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:41

narcissism with a narcissistic parent.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:43

But most of it is the environment.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:46

And the situations you dealt with growing up.

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And so you could always look at your father's behavior and say,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:53

there's something wrong with it because you had your mother, cause

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:15:58

you knew what it was like to feel connected and emotionally aware.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:02

I think though, we always have to be aware of our vulnerability and the

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:06

vulnerability probably you do have is that identification with how to be a man.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:11

I mean, you've clearly you're in a different place now at age 44

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:15

than you were at age 18 20, 21, 25.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:18

But clearly some of it is there.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:21

And I think some of your struggles you'd have to say, yeah, it

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:23

looks a little like that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:25

Nothing like what your father did, but, or how he acted.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:29

I mean, it was the most remarkable thing.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:32

Of course it was the awful things he had done with your mom, the awful

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:35

stuff, not just leading up to her death, but well before that, but

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:40

he also did terrible things to you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:42

He also was really, really.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:46

I mean, I shared his aggression and that more, I don't know if they was

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:49

more overt with his aggression, although it's not unusual for narcissist to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:53

present as if they have no trouble.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:16:55

And then in the world and seen as a very benevolent caring person, but at home

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:00

really wreck havoc, that's not unusual.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:03

He did sort of a bit of both, um, uh, meaning that had some characteristics

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:09

I would say, wanting to present well.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:12

Uh, but the second aspect of it was that he also wasn't able to sustain that and

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:16

in relationships just was never there.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:20

So I do think in a long-winded answer, I do think that, yeah, I think we have to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:24

be attentive to that, but I also think you have good models to help you see

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:28

perspective differently, which is great.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:32

I guess I could ask you that question.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:34

Do you fear sometimes the, some of those characteristics that

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:17:37

you saw in your dad and you,

Collier Landry: 00:17:41

I would say that.

Collier Landry: 00:17:45

Growing up after the murder and going, like, when I made the transition

Collier Landry: 00:17:51

from going to private school to public school, I was bullied a lot.

Collier Landry: 00:17:55

It didn't make a big deal out of it.

Collier Landry: 00:17:57

Um, but I was bullied a lot and I was not like a small like kid, you

Collier Landry: 00:18:05

know, I was a sizable, you know, I mean I could kick someone's ass.

Collier Landry: 00:18:09

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:18:09

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:18:10

I would get angry, but I would let it just, I wouldn't fight back.

Collier Landry: 00:18:16

I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't engage because there was a part

Collier Landry: 00:18:20

of me that was very concerned that a switch could be flipped.

Collier Landry: 00:18:26

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:18:27

Because I grew up seeing my father, having his switch flipped, like that

Collier Landry: 00:18:34

would go into fits of rage and anger over.

Collier Landry: 00:18:39

Nothing.

Collier Landry: 00:18:41

And I remember a specific time I was wearing a hat that the ski instructor

Collier Landry: 00:18:46

had given me and said, Penn state.

Collier Landry: 00:18:47

Now my father graduated from Wharton university of Pennsylvania

Collier Landry: 00:18:50

Quakers, and I said, Penn state.

Collier Landry: 00:18:52

And he goes, you shouldn't, you can't say that.

Collier Landry: 00:18:53

Don't say that we hate Penn state.

Collier Landry: 00:18:55

And I was like, oh, Penn state.

Collier Landry: 00:18:56

I was nine years old.

Collier Landry: 00:18:59

What kids do acting like a little obnoxious kid.

Collier Landry: 00:19:03

That's right.

Collier Landry: 00:19:03

Surprise, surprise.

Collier Landry: 00:19:05

Um, and it seems to, uh, translate well into adulthood.

Collier Landry: 00:19:09

Um, and we have this, you know, so I'm making this and then he just gets

Collier Landry: 00:19:16

enraged and he's screaming at me.

Collier Landry: 00:19:18

And my mother is pleading for my life and he breaks the windows and the door.

Collier Landry: 00:19:22

And he's screaming at her, pointing at her, smacking her like.

Collier Landry: 00:19:26

Anger and just, it was so terrifying over me and you for his forgiveness.

Collier Landry: 00:19:32

I'm going to kill this kid.

Collier Landry: 00:19:33

If I pay you we'll bet again, she's pleading with him.

Collier Landry: 00:19:36

It was just, it was one of the most dramatic things I'd ever seen

Collier Landry: 00:19:39

from her father and she's crying and she's pleading Jack don't hurt

Collier Landry: 00:19:43

him, Jacqueline we'll do this.

Collier Landry: 00:19:45

Um, and it's like, you know, and I testified at that trial.

Collier Landry: 00:19:49

So right.

Collier Landry: 00:19:50

Getting back to what I was saying, I would always question if I, if

Collier Landry: 00:19:56

that's switched flipped, could that light be turned off quickly, easily?

Collier Landry: 00:20:03

Could I come out and just be aggressive?

Collier Landry: 00:20:06

All of my pent up aggression, if you will, of my, you know,

Collier Landry: 00:20:11

first of all, I'm a teenager.

Collier Landry: 00:20:12

So I'm already having an angsty time in general should get what happened to me.

Collier Landry: 00:20:16

I'm a teenager.

Collier Landry: 00:20:17

Teenage boys are probably the best examples of sociopaths

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:20

in the world.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:21

Oh sure.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:22

South interested.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:22

So focused.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:24

That'd be there's there.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:25

There's for sure.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:26

It goes with it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:26

Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:20:27

It comes

Collier Landry: 00:20:27

with the territory.

Collier Landry: 00:20:28

So I already have this angsty teenager insight coupled with the

Collier Landry: 00:20:31

fact that my whole life had been turned upside down a few years

Collier Landry: 00:20:34

earlier and all of this other stuff.

Collier Landry: 00:20:36

And then what had happened to me on top of it and who my father

Collier Landry: 00:20:38

was, there was a lot of elements at play, so I never really get it.

Collier Landry: 00:20:41

So back to your question was, did I worry about that?

Collier Landry: 00:20:44

Yes.

Collier Landry: 00:20:44

I worried about that a lot and I.

Collier Landry: 00:20:48

Have gotten over that fear in adulthood.

Collier Landry: 00:20:52

Um, I know that I'm not that type of person.

Collier Landry: 00:20:54

I don't have those proclivities to anger and irrational

Collier Landry: 00:20:59

behavior that my father had.

Collier Landry: 00:21:03

And just at the flip of the switch, but I do want to go back to something

Collier Landry: 00:21:05

that you were saying earlier, which is my, you know, uh, the narcissism and

Collier Landry: 00:21:15

my, the way my father behaved.

Collier Landry: 00:21:18

There were so many people.

Collier Landry: 00:21:19

And if you look at like the trial and they raised a fund for

Collier Landry: 00:21:22

him, they raised all this money.

Collier Landry: 00:21:24

I used to go with my father on his rounds, uh, as a medical doctor.

Collier Landry: 00:21:27

And I, um, I definitely, uh, sorry, now the phone just beeped, which is insane.

Collier Landry: 00:21:36

Um, the, uh, I would go on my father's medical rounds with him and I saw what.

Collier Landry: 00:21:44

A great doctor.

Collier Landry: 00:21:45

He was and how he interacted with patients.

Collier Landry: 00:21:48

And so when my father was charged with murdering his wife, um, a lot

Collier Landry: 00:21:53

of people didn't know he was married.

Collier Landry: 00:21:54

First of all, second of all, they, they had this sort of state of

Collier Landry: 00:21:58

disbelief, like how this is Dr.

Collier Landry: 00:22:00

Boyle.

Collier Landry: 00:22:00

He's this great doctor he's helped me with my cancer.

Collier Landry: 00:22:02

He's helped me with this.

Collier Landry: 00:22:04

He treats me for disability from the GM plant.

Collier Landry: 00:22:07

He does.

Collier Landry: 00:22:07

And he's a great doctor.

Collier Landry: 00:22:09

This man is incapable of this.

Collier Landry: 00:22:11

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:22:13

Do you feel because of his extension of being a doctor that, you know, I think

Collier Landry: 00:22:19

Jim Mayer, the prosecutor said in his closing argument, he was a killer by

Collier Landry: 00:22:23

debt, a healer by day killer by night.

Collier Landry: 00:22:26

Right?

Collier Landry: 00:22:26

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:22:27

So do you feel that in the position of my father was.

Collier Landry: 00:22:31

Selectively, almost like the selective empathy where he would go to the

Collier Landry: 00:22:36

patients and, and, and the families.

Collier Landry: 00:22:38

And I would go to my father with like, we go to Amish country and I learned

Collier Landry: 00:22:43

a lot about, and of course me being a little entertainer, I was like, tap

Collier Landry: 00:22:46

dancing and playing this little harmonica and singing and cleaning patients

Dr. Dennis Marikis:

Speaker: 00:22:48

over the little nature.

Collier Landry: 00:22:51

Um, but I remember specifically there was

Collier Landry: 00:22:54

a place not too far from you.

Collier Landry: 00:22:55

I don't know if it still exists.

Collier Landry: 00:22:56

It was called the rain tree where they had children with disabilities, uh, extreme

Collier Landry: 00:23:00

disabilities that required, you know, um, what is the word of Haley attic or paleo?

Collier Landry: 00:23:07

What is a paleo Patrick or, you know what I mean?

Collier Landry: 00:23:10

Palliative

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:23:11

care, palliative care, palliative

Collier Landry: 00:23:13

care.

Collier Landry: 00:23:14

Is that what I'm, is that what I'm

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:23:16

saying?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:23:16

And people that are typically, uh, they're not in hospice, but the care

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:23:22

is really based on level of function and they don't really do a lot more

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:23:25

remarkably to change the person they'd facilitate making them more.

Collier Landry: 00:23:32

Um, so I remember, yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:23:37

So I remember specifically going to the Raintree of my father and a kid,

Collier Landry: 00:23:41

you know, who had like, you know, he was developmentally like mentally

Collier Landry: 00:23:45

disabled and was drooling and my father was cleaning up the drool.

Collier Landry: 00:23:49

And I remember just, I was crying.

Collier Landry: 00:23:51

I was trying not to cry, but I was, I felt so bad for this child.

Collier Landry: 00:23:56

I didn't realize at the time I think that that was his reality.

Collier Landry: 00:24:02

And I think that we all go through things and, you know, people say, oh,

Collier Landry: 00:24:05

how did you handle your situation?

Collier Landry: 00:24:06

What was my reality?

Collier Landry: 00:24:07

I just handle it.

Collier Landry: 00:24:07

So he probably didn't know another reality.

Collier Landry: 00:24:09

I think he was born that way.

Collier Landry: 00:24:11

Um, but I remember my father would say to me, you know, you're really blessed.

Collier Landry: 00:24:17

To have an able body and to be a kid that can go outside and play and all this

Collier Landry: 00:24:22

stuff, and just be grateful for that.

Collier Landry: 00:24:23

And my mother would do the same thing.

Collier Landry: 00:24:24

My mother was very big into the whole gratitude thing and, and really

Collier Landry: 00:24:27

understanding, you know, I think it's a great way to raise a child by the

Collier Landry: 00:24:30

way, one of my favorite things, you know, it, wasn't probably my favorite

Collier Landry: 00:24:34

as a kid, but as I've entered adulthood is that my mother every year would

Collier Landry: 00:24:39

make me go before Santa Claus came.

Collier Landry: 00:24:42

And yes, I believed in Santa Claus.

Collier Landry: 00:24:44

I literally found out about Santa Claus when I was going through the house.

Collier Landry: 00:24:48

And I found my letters to Santa Claus and I asked my foster mother, why did

Collier Landry: 00:24:53

mommy have, why did my mother have this.

Collier Landry: 00:24:58

These letters from Santa, why does she keep them?

Collier Landry: 00:25:01

And then she said, well, there's no Santa Claus.

Collier Landry: 00:25:02

Just like a matter of fact, like there's no Santa Claus color here.

Collier Landry: 00:25:05

Wait, you didn't know anybody?

Collier Landry: 00:25:06

I was like, yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:25:07

I was like, great.

Collier Landry: 00:25:08

Okay.

Collier Landry: 00:25:08

So I've lost my mom and lost my father.

Collier Landry: 00:25:09

I lost my dog, lost my whole way of living.

Collier Landry: 00:25:11

And now there's no fucking Santa Claus.

Collier Landry: 00:25:13

No,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:13

thanks.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:14

Thanks.

Collier Landry: 00:25:18

Um, I re so I don't know where I was going with this, but

Collier Landry: 00:25:23

I think about my father with his care that he would provide patients and

Collier Landry: 00:25:31

showing that that genuine empathy in that moment is that is the way that he is.

Collier Landry: 00:25:37

Is that because it's self.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:40

Well, I think there's no doubt about that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:42

That's it?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:42

I, I, it's not unusual.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:45

I'll say this broadly without, ah, I'll say it with a little bit of care, but

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:48

concern a lot of physicians, a lot of people in those healing roles do take on

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:53

some of those narcissistic characteristics in part, because they have some godlike

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:25:58

complexes because they can heal somebody.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:01

So we may say the healer has empathy, but the healer really is a problem solver.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:05

He's a technician to resolve the issue.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:08

And I'm now that's sort of a, a limited way of looking at their concern for

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:12

other people, but it's not unusual for somebody that has narcissistic

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:16

characteristics to do that because where does appraise praise go?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:20

Oh, doctor, you helped me out so much.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:22

The praise goes back to you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:24

It's always an exchange there.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:26

It's always back to me.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:27

So when I help somebody I'm getting affirmation and also probably

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:32

earning a fairly substantial living.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:34

There's lots of factors that go with that profession, but you can sort of

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:37

box it into a profession where you show empathy to the degree that you care for

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:41

somebody else, but not really deeply felt.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:45

In fact, it's often talked to positions to not show that care because it's difficult.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:50

Even in my profession, when I work at supervising counselors,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:54

it's important to set boundaries.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:55

So you really can't get so invested that you take with you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:26:59

the challenges of your experience.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:02

So you have to do, it's called objectifying.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:04

You have to sort of see the person care about them, but create

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:08

some distance because of the pain that people are suffering,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:11

including yours Collier like that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:13

You can't, you can't wear with you every day.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:15

And then do that work with 20 other people and maintain that

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:19

physician has to do the same.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:22

So, yes, there's probably some that he showed some care and concern for

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:26

no doubt about it, but it was in the context of the role of being a physician.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:31

And I think that's how I often see that kind of, like I said,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:34

it's sort of compartmentalize.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:35

I can be that person in that situation.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:38

The answer always is when I work with people with narcissistic characteristics

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:41

is in those situations that you show care and concern for other people and

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:47

you do it because you're, whatever your profession might be or whatever

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:50

your role is, you can broaden that in your work is to broaden that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:54

Even when you feel like you want to yell and scream to begin to start

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:27:57

the process of realizing that the court of narcissism is insecurity.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:02

It's a hard one to see because they seem so remarkably convict.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:07

But the core of it is insecure.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:09

If we're to sort of take a tagline for narcissism, is it, I have to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:13

what order to feel good about myself.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:15

I have to prove that I'm better than you always, always.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:18

So physician is better because he's the caregiver he's providing the

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:23

service you see, and it's great.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:25

And I'm not saying he doesn't, he didn't show care and concern for his patients.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:29

I'm sure he did, but you know, and, and, and I don't know that I can

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:32

even diagnose him with our system.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:34

I didn't really ever work with your dad, but I do understand the characteristics

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:38

are there based on what you experienced.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:42

So yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:28:43

It can be both.

Collier Landry: 00:28:45

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:28:47

Um, something that was interesting that a lot of people ask about.

Collier Landry: 00:28:52

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:28:53

Um,

Collier Landry: 00:28:57

And you and I discussed this and I don't know if it made it into the

Collier Landry: 00:29:00

film, but you and I discussed it.

Collier Landry: 00:29:01

We discussed it afterwards many times, but, and you know, as I, uh,

Collier Landry: 00:29:05

as you know, I did a Ted talk about this saying, what if the answer you

Collier Landry: 00:29:09

seek is not the answer you need.

Collier Landry: 00:29:12

And one of the most poignant things that you said to me after the

Collier Landry: 00:29:17

meeting with my father in prison, and this will always stick with me.

Collier Landry: 00:29:21

And I tell people this, because I think that people see my father stumbling

Collier Landry: 00:29:28

through making up lies, trying to figure out like, weren't you angry?

Collier Landry: 00:29:32

Weren't you, this don't you feel left unsatisfied because he didn't admit what

Collier Landry: 00:29:38

he did and this, that, and the other.

Collier Landry: 00:29:40

But one of the things that you said to me very specifically is that you feel by

Collier Landry: 00:29:46

my father, not admitting his guilt or a justification of why he committed the.

Collier Landry: 00:29:56

A proper one, um, that, that will ultimately serves me better because

Collier Landry: 00:30:02

I ended up with less questions and I have a better resolution.

Collier Landry: 00:30:06

Can you talk about that a little bit, because that's a really hard

Collier Landry: 00:30:09

pill for a lot of people to swallow.

Collier Landry: 00:30:10

Yes, it is.

Collier Landry: 00:30:11

Because

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:12

I think everyone's perspective is when we have this sort

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:15

of moment where we have, uh, a come to Jesus perspective or facing that

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:20

person in your life, whatever it's apparent, et cetera, you hope for the

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:24

outcome to be, that will be nice with each other, for the rest of our days.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:28

We'll reconcile, we'll make it better.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:30

And in this situation, my fear for you and his fear for a lot of people that deal

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:36

with people with these characteristics is that you're inclined to be drawn to that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:42

His affirmations were powerful to you more than is, is all his negative things

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:48

he said, because he kinda counted on that because you knew that's kind of

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:51

his response to you was so part of it by doing that allows you to see

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:30:58

really his true nature towards you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:01

And more importantly, it helped you realize that this was your journey.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:06

It really helps, you know, the word that I would use also is forgiveness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:09

And I know that's a tough word because people translate that in a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:12

lot of weird ways, but the big issue.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:16

Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:16

It is more the process of letting go.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:19

He helped you to let go a whole lot more.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:22

So by being consistent and congruent with his perspective throughout this

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:27

process, had he done the opposite and iTero, you know, that sometimes even in

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:32

the journey with those ladder, it was, they were nice kind letters at times.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:37

There were some things that reflected a sense of connection to you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:31:41

And I think that kind of brings you closer to him.

Collier Landry: 00:31:46

My dad.

Collier Landry: 00:31:47

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:31:48

Stockholm syndrome, right?

Collier Landry: 00:31:49

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:31:50

Right, right now they brought me some food.

Collier Landry: 00:31:53

They gave me a hot shower.

Collier Landry: 00:31:54

I've been in a concrete box.

Collier Landry: 00:31:57

30 days.

Collier Landry: 00:31:59

That's why I haven't eaten anything.

Collier Landry: 00:32:00

Oh, this nice person, you know, it's the good cop back.

Collier Landry: 00:32:03

It's it's, it's crazy.

Collier Landry: 00:32:07

And it's, um, it's, it's really, really difficult, but yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:32:13

Um, I feel very, uh, obviously you're being very open and honest and as I'm

Collier Landry: 00:32:18

I definitely, my father would draw me in by these little things of praise.

Collier Landry: 00:32:23

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:32:23

It's a way of these little nuggets.

Collier Landry: 00:32:26

Like, I'm so proud of you, son.

Collier Landry: 00:32:27

I'm so proud of this.

Collier Landry: 00:32:28

I'm so proud of the man you become you're the miss.

Collier Landry: 00:32:31

And then at the end of the day, you have to then take that with a grain of salt.

Collier Landry: 00:32:34

Like, why is he saying that?

Collier Landry: 00:32:35

Oh, because he's up for parole.

Collier Landry: 00:32:37

Oh, because he wants to rescind me to rescind my testimony.

Collier Landry: 00:32:40

Oh.

Collier Landry: 00:32:40

I mean, as you know, the whole, the whole thing with the film was, you

Collier Landry: 00:32:45

know, when I, when my father enters the room, Big final scene, right?

Collier Landry: 00:32:50

A smile on his face.

Collier Landry: 00:32:51

He's very, very excited and he's like, oh, I'm happy to be here.

Collier Landry: 00:32:54

And he's like, Hey Bob, how you doing?

Collier Landry: 00:32:57

And as soon as I say to him, one of the things I've been interested

Collier Landry: 00:33:02

in ever since you murdered my.

Collier Landry: 00:33:05

His whole, yeah, just demeanor changes.

Collier Landry: 00:33:09

Right?

Collier Landry: 00:33:10

Because my father was under the impression and not because

Collier Landry: 00:33:13

I gave him this impression.

Collier Landry: 00:33:15

Um, I may have let him run with it, but I most certainly didn't say,

Collier Landry: 00:33:20

this is why I'm doing this dad.

Collier Landry: 00:33:22

He felt that I was making a film to help him get out of prison.

Collier Landry: 00:33:25

So he was very excited to share his side of the story and how wonderful

Collier Landry: 00:33:30

he's been doing in prison with all of his accolades and, and God, his

Collier Landry: 00:33:35

degree in theology or his master's in theology and all of these things.

Collier Landry: 00:33:39

And he's doing this work with grief recovery for the other inmates,

Collier Landry: 00:33:43

which by the way, I mean, I know that he is making an impact there.

Collier Landry: 00:33:46

And for that, I am grateful.

Collier Landry: 00:33:48

I mean, I don't think it impacts him at all, but it does.

Collier Landry: 00:33:51

I did meet several inmates that felt that the work that he had done with

Collier Landry: 00:33:57

them, it really helped them come to terms with their own crimes and their own.

Collier Landry: 00:34:01

You know, uh, come to terms with their, their, their impact on other victims.

Collier Landry: 00:34:07

Um, which is, which is something that I feel like is commendable in a lot

Collier Landry: 00:34:11

of ways because, uh, you know, at least you're doing something good.

Collier Landry: 00:34:15

At least it is impacting some people.

Collier Landry: 00:34:17

And I heard that firsthand.

Collier Landry: 00:34:18

So give credit where credit is due.

Collier Landry: 00:34:19

That is a fantastic thing.

Collier Landry: 00:34:21

It's also absolutely the prison that he's in Marion correctional institution.

Collier Landry: 00:34:25

Um, they sort of push those types of things.

Collier Landry: 00:34:28

They, they are not push, but they have an environment that allows those types

Collier Landry: 00:34:33

of things to occur, which is also despite my father's inability to be.

Collier Landry: 00:34:39

Formed, as we say, I still feel really good about the work that has done

Collier Landry: 00:34:43

there at that facility, because they do allow space for that, which I feel

Collier Landry: 00:34:47

is massive and anyone who is trying to change their life after committing

Collier Landry: 00:34:52

such a violent, horrible crime.

Collier Landry: 00:34:54

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:34:55

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:34:55

So for that, I'm very grateful to them.

Collier Landry: 00:34:58

What I want to, you know, what a lot of these people have asked and a lot

Collier Landry: 00:35:04

of these questions come from readers or psychologists that have seen the

Collier Landry: 00:35:07

film would go this guy's amazing again.

Collier Landry: 00:35:09

Oh, amazing.

Collier Landry: 00:35:12

You're like a little celebrity in their world.

Collier Landry: 00:35:13

They're like, this is the bus only.

Collier Landry: 00:35:15

I said, this is the best child psychologist I've ever seen in my life.

Collier Landry: 00:35:18

Like, oh, is he still practicing?

Collier Landry: 00:35:21

What is he doing?

Collier Landry: 00:35:23

Amazing.

Collier Landry: 00:35:24

And so thank you for that and everything that you contributed to the

Collier Landry: 00:35:29

film and to my, my personal growth.

Collier Landry: 00:35:32

Um, but what they wanted.

Collier Landry: 00:35:36

A lot of the question that I get is given the dynamic with my father.

Collier Landry: 00:35:42

Is it possible for an individual who is going through dealing with someone

Collier Landry: 00:35:48

who is a narcissist sociopath, dealing with these qualities in a person,

Collier Landry: 00:35:51

in another person, as you know, we just came through the pandemic.

Collier Landry: 00:35:54

People are really realizing who they're cooped up with these

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:35:56

days.

Collier Landry: 00:35:58

Is it possible to even to have some sort of relationship

Collier Landry: 00:36:01

or is it just all bets are off?

Collier Landry: 00:36:03

This is never going to change.

Collier Landry: 00:36:05

Can you speak to that a little bit?

Collier Landry: 00:36:06

Because that's a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:07

big burden.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:08

That's a really big one.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:10

And I want to get back to the notion of what your father is doing.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:13

And again, we're not diagnosing him.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:14

That's clearly the case.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:15

But what we find is that when the environment is controlled and you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:21

don't have the capacity to have personal relationships as easily

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:28

to have a sense of life outside of that role, they typically do.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:34

I mean, they do.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:34

So I hate to say it, but as, as, as is common prison for people

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:39

have those skills, like your father had his, a position, uh, really

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:43

do better in those apartments.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:45

And so that can manifest more effectively, but it doesn't mean that that, that won't

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:49

flip when, if he were to be released, but clearly that's what happens.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:53

My role is a healer.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:55

And so, and that's probably all my role.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:36:57

I mean, I don't have relationships in the same way.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:00

I don't have a family in the same way.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:01

I don't have those sites.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:03

So sometimes people with that characteristic pattern can do well

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:06

in those controlled environments to reflect that they can then use

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:12

that controlled environment and now expand it to world like he had prior

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:16

to going to prison is another issue.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:19

It's just another issue and the dynamic, uh, it just simply doesn't carry as well.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:25

So I do think that some of what we're S we're looking at here, Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:29

You had a question with that beyond that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:31

And I got stuck on that notion.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:32

What was your other one?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:37:33

I

Collier Landry: 00:37:33

think that was great.

Collier Landry: 00:37:33

I think that was great.

Collier Landry: 00:37:36

And that does serve the role.

Collier Landry: 00:37:39

I think that people were just curious to, how can you, how do you, when

Collier Landry: 00:37:43

you're stuck with someone like that in your life, how do you do you

Collier Landry: 00:37:47

just have to make the conscious conscientious decision of just saying

Collier Landry: 00:37:50

I'm just shutting this off in my brain.

Collier Landry: 00:37:53

I'm going well much.

Collier Landry: 00:37:54

Like I have, like I say, in the film, you know, one of the things

Collier Landry: 00:37:59

that was really cool is a New York times reporter had seen the film

Collier Landry: 00:38:03

and he said, Hey, here's the thing.

Collier Landry: 00:38:05

And I didn't even, I wasn't even prepared for him to say this, but it was, and I

Collier Landry: 00:38:08

was like, I did, he said to me, he goes, the thing that stuck out the most to me,

Collier Landry: 00:38:12

to me in the film is after you have this whole scene with your father, you get up,

Collier Landry: 00:38:17

you hug him and you say, I love you pop.

Collier Landry: 00:38:20

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:38:21

He's like, I want you to, to sort of he's like that to me was the moment

Collier Landry: 00:38:25

that spoke the most about your character

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:38:27

as a person.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:38:28

It is

Collier Landry: 00:38:29

who you are.

Collier Landry: 00:38:30

And I was like, well, thank you.

Collier Landry: 00:38:32

I was like, I didn't really look at it that way.

Collier Landry: 00:38:33

I just, that's just me.

Collier Landry: 00:38:35

You know, that's just how I am and I'm not going to go with hate and I

Collier Landry: 00:38:38

do want to get into the subject of forgiveness because this is very key.

Collier Landry: 00:38:41

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:38:42

Um, and I think it's a nice segue is I say that to him because that's my

Collier Landry: 00:38:49

natural response, but I've made the decision after hearing everything.

Collier Landry: 00:38:55

And I say, you know, I, I believe that you believe that.

Collier Landry: 00:38:58

And there's my answer.

Collier Landry: 00:39:00

How, let me go back a little bit.

Collier Landry: 00:39:04

When my father was convicted and sentenced by, um, uh, judge Henson, um, James Henson

Collier Landry: 00:39:11

served as the criminal judge on case.

Collier Landry: 00:39:17

He called me into his chambers after the sentencing and everything.

Collier Landry: 00:39:21

And I was sitting there and he, he got into sort of this diatribe about

Collier Landry: 00:39:28

how, and I, and I loved Jim Henson.

Collier Landry: 00:39:30

I thought he was, he did a great job and, and I think he's a great person.

Collier Landry: 00:39:35

And he said to me, he goes, you can't forgive, unless you can forget.

Collier Landry: 00:39:42

So then you can never forgive it.

Collier Landry: 00:39:43

He gave me this whole speech about forgiveness.

Collier Landry: 00:39:45

And I just remember at the time thinking to myself, well, that's bullshit.

Collier Landry: 00:39:50

And, and it has to be bullshit because I am never going to forget the fact

Collier Landry: 00:39:56

that my father murdered my mother.

Collier Landry: 00:39:59

I will never forget that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:40:00

No, no, never

Collier Landry: 00:40:02

for a split.

Collier Landry: 00:40:03

Second of probably even if I had Alzheimer's I wouldn't forget that it

Collier Landry: 00:40:10

such a monumental thing in your life.

Collier Landry: 00:40:13

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:40:14

So.

Collier Landry: 00:40:16

When he said that, I was just like, that's just doesn't work for me.

Collier Landry: 00:40:19

And I'm going to have to figure out a way, because I can't forget this and

Collier Landry: 00:40:24

forgiveness cannot be tied to this.

Collier Landry: 00:40:27

No, we can't.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:40:28

No, that's right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:40:29

I think it's the other way around.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:40:31

Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:40:31

And

Collier Landry: 00:40:32

I think, you know, and, and even some people, even before,

Collier Landry: 00:40:36

when I made the film, they were, they were trying to understand, you know,

Collier Landry: 00:40:39

how can you forgive your father?

Collier Landry: 00:40:41

It's just so heinous.

Collier Landry: 00:40:42

Like, how can you, how do you forget that?

Collier Landry: 00:40:44

Like, it's just, how can you forgive somebody that does that?

Collier Landry: 00:40:46

And I, and I'm like,

Collier Landry: 00:40:51

I I'll make guys you're, you're thinking about this, the wrong way.

Collier Landry: 00:40:54

You're thinking that by me forgiving him, I am somehow

Collier Landry: 00:40:57

excusing him for what he read.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:41:00

Right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:41:00

Which is

Collier Landry: 00:41:00

not the case.

Collier Landry: 00:41:02

No, but, but by forgiving him, I take away all the power that, that has over.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:41:11

You got taking all of that back

Collier Landry: 00:41:12

and owning it and saying, I have a choice right here right now.

Collier Landry: 00:41:17

I can hate this man to sit, you know, and it's, and it's, you know,

Collier Landry: 00:41:21

as you know, I'm sober, I quit drinking a couple of years ago.

Collier Landry: 00:41:23

And one of the things that a lot of people say in the poison or say, say in

Collier Landry: 00:41:27

the program is they'll say, you know, or this is maybe where I heard it in the room

Collier Landry: 00:41:31

somehow is, you know, it's like drinking, poison, expecting the other person to die.

Collier Landry: 00:41:36

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:41:36

And I know that these, these cliche sayings, but it's very true in this.

Collier Landry: 00:41:40

It's really true.

Collier Landry: 00:41:41

My father, if I, and I have, well, I mean, my mother's side of the family,

Collier Landry: 00:41:46

my immediate cousins who were molested and, you know, one of them sadly

Collier Landry: 00:41:50

took her own life a few years ago.

Collier Landry: 00:41:52

And I, and I, I understand that she had problems, but I'm sure that what

Collier Landry: 00:41:56

happened to her as a child did not have.

Collier Landry: 00:41:58

What's known.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:41:59

And didn't you say that your father was

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:02

accused of that behavior?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:03

Yeah,

Collier Landry: 00:42:04

my father was, my father was going to be arrested.

Collier Landry: 00:42:06

We found out, but the girls couldn't go through with testifying traumatic.

Collier Landry: 00:42:12

Yeah, it is traumatic and I, and my heart breaks for them.

Collier Landry: 00:42:15

And, and in no way is, you know, I mean, obviously if he was arrested,

Collier Landry: 00:42:20

he wanted to kill my mother, but in no way, is that their cross to

Collier Landry: 00:42:23

bear, like, you know, it's, it's it's they were reacting how they reacted.

Collier Landry: 00:42:30

My father was solely to blame for all of this.

Collier Landry: 00:42:33

Um, and all of this

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:35

tragedy.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:36

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:37

Oh, no, go ahead.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:38

Go ahead.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:38

No, I'm saying the tragedy, but all is, is who suffers, right?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:43

The victim suffers the most in those situations of trauma, you know,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:46

that more than anybody, um, and th and the tragic perspective is they

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:50

carry that burden of what it means to go through a trauma of abuse.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:42:55

And that is the, that is I see that far, far too often in my practice, that, that

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:01

the victimization continues to occur.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:04

Uh, and it's hard in that situation to address it differently.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:08

But like I said, it's no easier for you Collier and you have done a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:12

remarkable job of finding that space.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:14

Now, I want to come back to what you said when you, when they were talking about

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:17

you hugging your father and forgiveness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:20

Cause I do think it was the gesture of forgiveness, but it is

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:23

the suggestion of saying goodbye.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:26

You said goodbye to him.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:27

You said goodbye to him.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:29

And it brings sadness in my heart to see that that you'd have to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:32

say goodbye to your father and it wouldn't be on his death bed.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:36

It wouldn't be when he dies.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:38

It's like, you had to say goodbye to him because of what he did.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:41

And in my heart, that's where forgiveness really is.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:44

Like you said, is exactly right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:46

Forgiveness maintain is maintained.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:49

The process of not forgiving is maintained within the individual,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:51

not the situation anymore.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:53

So I hold onto.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:55

And so judge Johnson, who I love deeply, uh, I think he flipped it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:43:59

I think it's the other way around.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:00

You'll never forget, but you can forget.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:02

That's true.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:03

I believe that if forgiveness is defined by letting go and not reconciliation

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:09

or making things, all right, because that's not the core of forgiveness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:13

Sometimes people reconcile those forgiven relationships, but in this

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:17

situation, it would, I feared for you if.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:21

Because I know the influence and the challenge and the concerns that he

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:26

would create for you would be continued.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:28

And I think your goal was very clear that that's why the movie was so powerful

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:32

because it helped you come to the journey of saying, I'm letting you go.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:38

I'm never going to forget what you did.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:40

I'm letting you go.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:41

I'm letting you go.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:42

The hole that you had over me to want to be a father, to me, to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:47

have that father son relationship.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:49

That's what you let go of as much as a concept than the individual.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:53

Do you know what I mean?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:53

I mean, it's more the sense I've I desperately want a loving father.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:57

So you would make.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:44:59

You would show how he could be loving when he wasn't.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:01

No, I'm not saying it wasn't a times, but you would do that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:05

And so part of the work in this situation is saying, I'm letting go

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:09

of that hole that he had over me to be drawn, to, to draw towards that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:15

Like you said, like the Stockholm syndrome to have something at an emotional level

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:20

to eat and drink, to feel that sense of presence, that appetite for him.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:24

Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:24

And I thought that was clearly the most, well, I'm glad you did that because you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:29

took charge, you said, I'm letting you go.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:33

And, and, and I thought that was exactly what that was representing.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:37

And I thought that's really a beautiful way to do it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:39

You could say, well, screw you, buddy.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:41

I don't want any more to do with you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:42

You know, you're just a terrible man, but you didn't, you said, dad, I forgive me.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:48

I let go of you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:50

And I just think that's really the most powerful piece.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:54

And I think that's a practice that many of us need to do.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:45:57

We hold on to vengeances regardless of the level and the nature and the

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:01

challenge, we just hold onto those.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:03

And somehow we think we're going to get, we're going to get some, you know,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:07

I, even the legal system, as much as I find that, sometimes it can be helpful.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:10

It's not going to lead towards forgiveness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:12

It just doesn't, there may be some justice with it that helps,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:16

but you carry that stuff with you until you decide to let it go.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:21

And you did, and you did an in a very remarkable way, I think just remarkable.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:28

Well,

Collier Landry: 00:46:28

thank you.

Collier Landry: 00:46:29

Um, thank you for being a big part of that.

Collier Landry: 00:46:32

Well, that's

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:32

really great of you to say it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:34

It's

Collier Landry: 00:46:35

um, yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:46:38

It's um,

Collier Landry: 00:46:42

however,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:44

yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:46:57

It doesn't make it any less sad.

Collier Landry: 00:46:58

No, it's

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:46:59

it is the most tragic of story.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:02

It is your life going through that?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:06

Yes.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:07

I mean you

Collier Landry: 00:47:08

can I be, so my father,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:12

he's still your father

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:19

and it's never an absolute perspective.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:20

It's never, it's done.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:22

I have forgiven him.

Collier Landry: 00:47:23

Now.

Collier Landry: 00:47:24

It recycles the different parts of your life.

Collier Landry: 00:47:26

Call

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:26

your, when you face different challenges, too.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:29

And, and

Collier Landry: 00:47:30

it, like, I

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:31

S I said that before, and I, I don't, you know, I,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:33

it's sad to say, but you lost so much.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:39

But you've also gained so much, but you've lost so much.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:42

You realize that the presence of your mom was such an incredible

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:47

loss, but your presence with your mom is with you most of the time.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:51

I think, you know that I think you feel a sense of her, not in kind of a well,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:56

somebody kind of in a spiritual way, but I think it's just the qualities that you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:47:59

bring at times you feel that presence with her and you'd rather have her,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:05

you'd rather have the flesh and bone.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:06

Oh gosh, you'd rather have her sitting the next year right now.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:09

Of course, of course.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:11

But that sense of it is really where you are.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:15

You bring her with you as you deal with challenging situations as

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:18

you deal with loving situations.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:21

It's just the sadness that is so powerful, but powerful towards your father too.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:28

I mean, you would love to have had him be a loving, caring father.

Collier Landry: 00:48:36

I would take just not being an asshole and

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:38

not being an asshole would be good too.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:40

Yeah, don't kill my mother.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:44

I mean, it's absurd to say that, uh,

Collier Landry: 00:48:47

let's just start with that.

Collier Landry: 00:48:49

So you don't have

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:48:49

to be, I mean, to be loving,

Collier Landry: 00:48:51

caring, I mean, I have plenty of friends whose parents

Collier Landry: 00:48:55

are very detached from their lives, you know, and, and, you know, yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:49:00

Their parents might be wealthy and they cut checks, but, you know, and that's a

Collier Landry: 00:49:04

wonderful thing as a struggling artists.

Collier Landry: 00:49:06

That's an amazing thing to be able to have support from family members.

Collier Landry: 00:49:09

It'd be like, Hey, we really support what you're doing and here's some money.

Collier Landry: 00:49:12

Um, but the, that support is veiled in the, in for that particular

Collier Landry: 00:49:17

example is veiled with material.

Collier Landry: 00:49:20

Things is male veiled by material things that, that are,

Collier Landry: 00:49:23

that have no real substance.

Collier Landry: 00:49:26

You know, I think that, that anyone I know that has been through those

Collier Landry: 00:49:29

situations would much rather have a parent that loves and supports.

Collier Landry: 00:49:34

And, and, and says, you know, and rallies behind them, or has been

Collier Landry: 00:49:39

there in their lives, then just be like, here, you know, you need your

Collier Landry: 00:49:42

school paid for, you got no problem.

Collier Landry: 00:49:43

You need this.

Collier Landry: 00:49:43

Okay.

Collier Landry: 00:49:44

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:49:44

Just leave me alone.

Collier Landry: 00:49:44

Don't bother me.

Collier Landry: 00:49:46

And I think that's very sad.

Collier Landry: 00:49:47

And I think that, that in and of itself induces another sort

Collier Landry: 00:49:50

of trauma is like my trauma.

Collier Landry: 00:49:53

Not really, no, but it is another form of, of, of dealing with these

Collier Landry: 00:49:58

people and, and understanding the challenges that lie within that.

Collier Landry: 00:50:05

Right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:05

Right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:06

I made it sound like, and I think that's the difference

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:09

in terms of level of trauma.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:11

And it can be traumatic to go through a parent's going through

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:14

a divorce and the parent who you reside with the other parent does

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:18

not get active in your life at all.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:20

So it works in the same way you work on forgiveness issues, but now we

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:24

have to magnify it a hundred fold based on what you've been through.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:31

You really were not given a situation where you could say,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:35

okay, so that used to be my life.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:37

So this is my life.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:38

Now you didn't really know what life would look like and how it would unfold.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:43

And I think that's why it was so hard as it makes it even harder to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:47

let go of your father, because he was the only one who had was a piece

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:52

of your lifestyle in a weird way.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:50:54

You know, he, he was a person who created this loss, but also, uh, was

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:00

your father who was the only semblance of family that you had left at that point.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:05

So it's far different than say a kid going through a divorce, but it's similar in

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:09

that forgiveness is necessary there too.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:11

I just.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:13

I keep saying, and I think you're remarkable in your ability

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:17

to be able to find yourself.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:19

And I can give that to you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:21

I also give a little bit to Noreen too.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:23

She was so clear about really loving your uniqueness.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:28

That's the one thing I remember, one of the things I remember was was how

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:32

she very much loved who you were in all your Quirky's unique stuff that you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:38

did as an adolescent, as a young kid.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:40

I got that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:41

And that was, that was very clear to me.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:43

And so that unconditional love is not something that goes away ever really,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:51

because it really truly was unconditional.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:54

She loved you unconditionally.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:51:57

That's a wonderful thing.

Collier Landry: 00:52:04

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:52:04

The filmmaker in me would just say, Hey, we'll leave.

Collier Landry: 00:52:07

Yeah.

Collier Landry: 00:52:08

Do you want to say one more thing?

Collier Landry: 00:52:09

Because it's been shaking in my mind and I've said it

Collier Landry: 00:52:11

continually throughout my life.

Collier Landry: 00:52:13

Not very often and probably not even very publicly when I think

Collier Landry: 00:52:18

back when I see where I am now.

Collier Landry: 00:52:22

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:52:23

And when I think back to how everything unfolded, and this goes back to the,

Collier Landry: 00:52:29

the thing, when this guy said to me, I was in the Dominican Republic and

Collier Landry: 00:52:33

this guy said, he had said this to me.

Collier Landry: 00:52:35

We were, I was filming motorcycle scent writers, and they were trying to really

Collier Landry: 00:52:38

grasp with this whole forgiveness thing.

Collier Landry: 00:52:40

How do you just let that go?

Collier Landry: 00:52:44

Um,

Collier Landry: 00:52:49

I said to them, it's very hard to hate someone and also to not forgive

Collier Landry: 00:52:58

someone who you feel simultaneous.

Collier Landry: 00:53:06

Destroyed your life and saved it

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:53:09

at the surface.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:53:11

Yeah, it's really good way of looking at it's very insightful, right?

Collier Landry: 00:53:15

Because to me, when I think about that, I don't let my

Collier Landry: 00:53:21

circumstances to find me and I never have, but I'll be damned if I didn't think

Collier Landry: 00:53:27

that because of what happened to me, it has made me the person who I am, and it

Collier Landry: 00:53:33

is allowed me to have a platform that speaks to people that then helps them.

Collier Landry: 00:53:38

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:53:39

That ultimately helps me and create a film, do a Ted talk or Dr.

Collier Landry: 00:53:42

Phillip write books to travel around the world.

Collier Landry: 00:53:45

I mean, these are amazing experiences that I had right.

Collier Landry: 00:53:47

Life could have gone in an entirely different direction for me.

Collier Landry: 00:53:51

Right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:53:51

Exactly.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:53:52

And

Collier Landry: 00:53:52

I, and I think that one of the biggest things with my

Collier Landry: 00:53:56

life and I talked about this, I was interviewed in the independent a

Collier Landry: 00:53:59

couple weeks ago about the podcast.

Collier Landry: 00:54:00

And so one of my things.

Collier Landry: 00:54:03

Growing up was I did not.

Collier Landry: 00:54:07

I, I wanted to get out of Mansfield because I didn't want to be known

Collier Landry: 00:54:10

as the boil kid, like, right.

Collier Landry: 00:54:13

I wanted to define my life on my own terms.

Collier Landry: 00:54:16

And also like, so I came to the second largest city in the United States,

Collier Landry: 00:54:20

not knowing a single person and said, I'm going to make a career in

Collier Landry: 00:54:24

entertainment where like $2,000 in my pocket and said, I'm going to go make

Collier Landry: 00:54:27

a career in entertainment and figure all this out without knowing a soul.

Collier Landry: 00:54:31

And until the film was like, actually released half of my immediate friends

Collier Landry: 00:54:36

and colleagues in Los Angeles and in Hollywood had no idea what my story was.

Collier Landry: 00:54:43

Talk about it a lot.

Collier Landry: 00:54:44

And that's not because I was trying to hide anything, but it was like, uh,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:54:47

you know, how do you bring that conversation up?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:54:52

Right, right.

Collier Landry: 00:54:55

Okay.

Collier Landry: 00:54:56

I mean, those were real close to me knew, but they didn't

Collier Landry: 00:54:59

know the extent of what it was.

Collier Landry: 00:55:02

They just were like, okay.

Collier Landry: 00:55:03

His dad killed his mom desperate, which I think they probably thought

Collier Landry: 00:55:06

you shot her with a revolver.

Collier Landry: 00:55:07

It was a crime of passion.

Collier Landry: 00:55:08

I don't think they realize the seriousness of the crime being premeditated.

Collier Landry: 00:55:10

The whole thing, the girlfriend, the pregnancy, all this, one of the, but I

Collier Landry: 00:55:15

didn't want to let it define, define me.

Collier Landry: 00:55:17

And of course, everybody comes out here too with this whole,

Collier Landry: 00:55:19

oh, I'm going to tell my story.

Collier Landry: 00:55:21

Everybody's got a script of their head where they are here.

Collier Landry: 00:55:23

So I think there was also that, but literally I just remember

Collier Landry: 00:55:26

friends of mine saying, hold on.

Collier Landry: 00:55:28

So you made a move, but we met, you were talking about this before.

Collier Landry: 00:55:32

You're making a movie about your life, but you know, everybody says

Collier Landry: 00:55:36

that, but you actually did it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:55:38

It was like pretty amazing.

Collier Landry: 00:55:39

It's pretty much what I did.

Collier Landry: 00:55:41

Like, that's why

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:55:42

here.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:55:43

And they're just like,

Collier Landry: 00:55:45

I heard one of my friends saying to me, he was like, you know,

Collier Landry: 00:55:48

because it is very competitive and it is very easy when you're an artistic.

Collier Landry: 00:55:52

Career to become jealous of those around dude, he goes, I'm really

Collier Landry: 00:55:55

jealous envious of you, but at the same time, I'm really proud of you.

Collier Landry: 00:55:58

And I don't really feel how to take that.

Collier Landry: 00:55:59

I was like, we're bad.

Collier Landry: 00:56:01

It's all good.

Collier Landry: 00:56:02

I mean, I'll, you know, I'll take maybe not doing a movie about my

Collier Landry: 00:56:05

mother being murdered by my father, you know, and my response to it.

Collier Landry: 00:56:08

I, I think I could think of other things to do creatively, but

Collier Landry: 00:56:13

I was looking for this escape.

Collier Landry: 00:56:15

So again, I feel like, and I think the biggest takeaway from me saying all of

Collier Landry: 00:56:20

this and having you here right now is, you know, the thing with the podcast

Collier Landry: 00:56:28

with the film is that I wanted to show people that I wanted to give them a voice

Collier Landry: 00:56:36

and an understanding that you can make.

Collier Landry: 00:56:39

Through seemingly insurmountable odds.

Collier Landry: 00:56:42

And that's why you take on a profoundly tragic situation and make it pass

Collier Landry: 00:56:47

these insurmountable odds and do something positive with your life,

Collier Landry: 00:56:51

which is what resonates with people with the film, with the podcast, let's

Collier Landry: 00:56:54

see me on social media with my work.

Collier Landry: 00:56:55

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:56:56

Um, and it's a real privilege to be able to do that.

Collier Landry: 00:57:00

Uh, but again, it goes back to my thing of, you know, how do I hate

Collier Landry: 00:57:04

someone who I feel destroyed my life and say saved my life at the same time.

Collier Landry: 00:57:08

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:57:09

Also, I feel like, what do you say to someone that is going through a

Collier Landry: 00:57:15

similar circumstance, whether it be abuse, neglect, uh, physical w whether

Collier Landry: 00:57:21

their, their spouses has murdered someone or, or, or whatever that is.

Collier Landry: 00:57:25

Right.

Collier Landry: 00:57:25

And having come through the pandemic, dealing with all these things.

Collier Landry: 00:57:28

You know, I've been locked up with people for a year and a half, two years.

Collier Landry: 00:57:32

Um, well now two years, I guess,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:33

uh, family members passing with this too.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:36

I mean, I think it's also changing with this, right, right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:39

Holding

Collier Landry: 00:57:39

onto this, this grief and this anger.

Collier Landry: 00:57:42

Um, how do you, I mean, this, this show is called moving past murder.

Collier Landry: 00:57:46

What is the best piece of advice that you could give someone who is trying to

Collier Landry: 00:57:50

move past their own tragic circumstances?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:53

Right.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:53

I just think there's not a simple one.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:56

I think it almost always in the best way of looking at it

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:57:59

is he got to tell your story.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:01

If it is as remarkable as your story and you have the opportunity to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:04

tell it in the manner that you did.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:07

That's wonderful.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:08

I think of that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:09

If you don't mind, I'll share from a little, my family, my, my brother-in-law

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:13

and sister-in-law had a daughter who had.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:17

And, uh, on our 17th year of life, she committed suicide.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:23

And just simply she couldn't deal with it any longer.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:26

So the family decided, particularly my brother-in-law Darren is his name.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:30

Uh, Darren and Stacy, both decided they were going to do something about it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:34

So they develop this wonderful network in Atlanta called Aaron's

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:37

hope for France, and it's all based on that same perspective.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:41

So the second portion of it is turn that tragedy in some way of representing

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:47

ways that you could help others.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:48

And that's why I think.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:50

Dad helped you because I'm sure you would've been this way anyway, but it

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:54

gave you a wonderful, powerful platform to help others because, you know,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:58:58

when we think of trauma, oh my gosh, all the trauma that this pandemic has

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:03

caused and loss of family members.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:04

But, you know, I know you've had other talks about people growing

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:07

up with abuse and sexual abuse.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:09

And the prospect is one in four girls go through those experiences.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:12

The numbers are terrifying.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:13

One in six boys.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:15

So lots of trauma is built into people's lives.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:19

And one of the things that I realized that working with kids with trauma,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:22

as they become adults moving to trauma, I have a keen awareness, keen

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:26

empathy of what it means to suffer.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:29

And when I do that, then I develop better.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:32

And I develop a better way of seeing the community as a value to me.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:36

I make it sound easy.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:37

It isn't because we can get swallowed up by the trauma, you know, probably

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:40

times in your life where you've felt that trauma swallowing you up.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:44

It's just not getting so lost that you don't lose the perspective

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:47

about what you're capable of doing.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:49

We are remarkable and you are because you went through it and I'm

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:53

sure many people say, oh my gosh, I could never go through all of that

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:55

stuff that you've been through.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 00:59:57

And yet faced with challenges that people go through different clearly

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:01

than what you've been through.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:03

People find their way, they have that capacity.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:06

And I think that's the core of it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:08

And why is that?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:09

I think more evident.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:10

I think, I think Naureen made it so evident that loving and caring and being

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:14

concerned as much as she was concerned for you as much as he was concerned

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:19

for you, you utilize that platform.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:23

To help others going through trauma and challenge.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:26

So telling your stories first, tell your story, and however you want to do it.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:29

However you need to do it, realize that, like you said, it's sad.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:34

You can't get away from that.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:35

But the reality is if I can translate that into something that makes a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:39

difference in one other person's life, maybe I help someone who's gone through

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:43

something similar, not as remarkable as a platform that you use, but if I can

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:47

help one burst, then it's been great.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:50

I would bet that you have helped many people who you heard from many of

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:54

them, but you were here for a lot.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:55

You don't hear from all the people that you've helped with what you have done.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:00:59

That's the most important piece.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:00

The important piece is saying, I know what he's saying.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:03

I know he can get to the other side of it because I see where

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:06

he's going with this in his life.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:09

Maybe that's what I need to see within my.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:11

I won't make a movie, but I'll talk to someone who's been hurt

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:15

or understand someone's hurt.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:17

It's amazing.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:18

Empathy comes out of those experiences that we have up.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:21

And now there are some people that are naturally empathic, but the sense of being

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:25

aware of others and going through those challenges, because I know my own child.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:31

And I think that's fair to say that you, when you see people hurting, it

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:34

touches into that core of your own hurt.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:37

I honestly think that that's, that's a really important piece that trauma can

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:42

give us to help us understand two things.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:45

One we're much tougher than we give ourselves credit for a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:47

much more authentic and genuine.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:49

We can do this.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:50

But the second component is when I see somebody in pain, I really

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:54

have a connection with them.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:55

And it's at a level that you can't write.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:57

And I don't know much.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:01:58

It asks you that probably that's a good question for you to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:00

answer, but it's at a level.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:02

You can't just simply put it in words.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:04

Oh, I know what you've been through.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:05

Yeah.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:05

I also quit drinking or I also did these things.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:08

You have a sense of knowing what pain is and that's why you're never going to

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:13

forget this because it does become a core of your compassion and concern for others.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:18

And I think that that's really the key of it is connecting at a level

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:22

that, that a lot of people don't know how to connect that, but it makes a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:26

difference in one person's life and in many people's lives in your case.

Collier Landry: 01:02:31

I mean, that's all I ever wanted to do is, you know, heal

Collier Landry: 01:02:35

myself and impact one person's life.

Collier Landry: 01:02:38

And the fact of the matter is, is that it's been, you know, many

Collier Landry: 01:02:42

hundreds, if not thousands of people that have reached out and said also

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:47

add one more agenda piece for you,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:49

knowing you as long as I have.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:50

I also think you want to make your mom proud.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:55

You know, and, and, and without a doubt, I mean, I, I, I knew her

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:02:59

fairly well when you were at school.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:01

And remember when she prayed that your, your sister around and how

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:06

powerful that was for her to have this darling little one in your life, but

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:11

she was so remarkably proud of you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:14

And I, and I do think knowing her, um, she, she's so very proud of you

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:20

Collier for using this platform to deal with these very traumatic events.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:26

She is.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:28

There's no doubt in my mind.

Collier Landry: 01:03:34

Uh,

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:34

thank you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:36

You're welcome.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:36

Sure.

Collier Landry: 01:03:38

Uh, Dr.

Collier Landry: 01:03:41

Dennis, . Thank you for joining us.

Collier Landry: 01:03:44

Uh, I hope that you'll come back to the program because there's so much more, but

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:49

I'd be glad to, I was going to ask

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:51

you, can I come back for more?

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:52

I loved, I love meeting with you anyway.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:55

I love meeting with you anyway.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:57

It's wonderful.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:03:58

And, and mostly, I don't know about the other people, but I know about

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:04:00

you and I generally care about you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:04:03

And, and so I do feel a sense of connection at a

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:04:07

different level too, with you.

Dr. Dennis Marikis: 01:04:09

So yes, I would love to come back and have this chat with you again.

Collier Landry: 01:04:14

Well, as you can see, um, there was a lot of that, a episode that

Collier Landry: 01:04:18

got kind of emotional it's really, um,

Collier Landry: 01:04:24

getting sort of Dennis's insight and, you know, having had him,

Collier Landry: 01:04:28

uh, be a part of the film, right.

Collier Landry: 01:04:30

And then talking to him a few years later, like I just did to really

Collier Landry: 01:04:36

get his insight and also to find.

Collier Landry: 01:04:39

It is, it's so wonderful to hear because he did know my mother and many

Collier Landry: 01:04:42

people in my community knew my mother.

Collier Landry: 01:04:45

And to hear, um, you know, one of how proud he thinks that she would

Collier Landry: 01:04:51

be of me, but which is touching.

Collier Landry: 01:04:53

I know, but, um, to hear that when he said, you know, towards the beginning

Collier Landry: 01:04:58

of the episode, how everybody was very concerned about me and, um, how I was

Collier Landry: 01:05:06

coping and how he felt that, um, how fragile I was, everybody was concerned.

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Is he going to fall apart?

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And just how he got to know me in just that short interaction that

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we had that day of that I wasn't fragile that I was upset, obviously,

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because of what happened to my mother.

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Obviously I'm going to be grieving, but the fact that it was, um, That

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I struck him that way, that I was so kind of composed as a child it's it's.

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So I can't tell you how bizarre it is to hear that and how rewarding it

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is to, but, but how it's like, when I look back on that time period,

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how amazing it is to hear that.

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And I remembered something that I didn't mention the episode to

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him because he mentioned something about me having a sense of humor.

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And I remember him specifically saying on that day, If you could

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change anything, or if you could have anything right now, what would it be?

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And I remember him, I remember saying to him in my very sort of snarky 11 year

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old self way, well, I'll take a DeLorean.

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If you have one alluding to back to the future and having a, having a doc

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Brown's DeLorean to go back in time to change anything and saved my mother's

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life, because that's what I wanted to do.

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I wish that I had, at that time, you know, I w I was experiencing a lot

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of emotions where I wished that I had gotten out of bed when I saw my father's

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footsteps, or when I heard those two loud thuds, which was her being murdered.

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I mean, that was my reaction that I could have saved my mother.

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Now, as an adult, I realized that it was like impossible.

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First of all, I was 11 years old.

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I was heavily asthmatic, and my father was six foot three and 200 some pounds.

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And obviously in a fit of rage, I mean, you have to be in such.

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You'll be in such a mental state to really execute something like that.

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At least that's how I feel.

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Um, so obviously my, my rationale that I could have stopped the

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murder is utterly fanciful.

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Um, but nonetheless, I was feeling like that as a, as an 11 year old child.

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And that's why I wanted the time machine to go back in time.

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Um, but I've made peace with that obviously.

Collier Landry: 01:07:27

Um, But yeah, I think that, um, it, it was really, it's really good

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to hear his insight dealing with sociopath and narcissist narcissists.

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I hope that this really, uh, you know, it was a lot of you have been

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asking for this, so I hope it, his insights really have helped you,

Collier Landry: 01:07:42

uh, as they've helped me for sure.

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But, you know, again, I'm trying to, I am developing content that

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I find interesting, but I hope that you guys find interesting.

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So I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Collier Landry: 01:07:53

DME on social media is on my Instagram, my Twitter, Facebook,

Collier Landry: 01:07:57

there is a, you know, again, I have a Patrion set up now, patrion.com

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forward slash call your Landry.

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You can go there, see extra bits of the episodes.

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Um, uh, the episode archive, obviously all ad free and also these wonderful

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little tidbits of my life behind the scenes, things of that nature.

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But again, like, I want to hear from you guys, I'm developing this content.

Collier Landry: 01:08:20

I want to know what you guys think about what I'm doing and how if this

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episode really helped you or not.

Collier Landry: 01:08:26

Um, so I'm looking forward to hearing those comments again, I'm looking forward

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to seeing you guys every Tuesday, 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern time on

Collier Landry: 01:08:34

my Instagram lives @collierlandry on Instagram and all those wonderful things.

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So, uh, on that note, I'm Collier Landry and this is moving past murder.

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Thanks.

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this podcast is made possible by support from listeners.

Collier Landry: 01:08:54

Please subscribe via apple podcast, Spotify audible.

Collier Landry: 01:08:58

Find us on YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/collierlandry

Collier Landry: 01:09:08

The film, A Murder in Mansfield.

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Is available on Investigation Discovery, Discovery+ And Amazon Prime Video.

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